macOS in Svelte • Hacker News Board

Re: macOS in Svelte

#31

Post by grawprog » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:38 AM UTC

Operyl wrote: post #25

grawprog wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's the desktop environment's fault you lack self control? You're blaming your own inability to control yourself on a desktop environment providing too many options. Not everyone lacks self control.

Where did I blame the Desktop Environment? Nowhere did I state such, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I find the interoperability of my devices _great_ and I can't get that with Linux. I'd rather spend those hours tweaking servers, or projects, than some pointless (and typically subpar) Linux DE. I don't want to deal with that, as others have pointed out.

It's this thing you keep saying where endless tweaking is necessary. That is not true as I have stated multiple times. If you feel the need to constantly tweak things when you have the option to and can't help yourself that is purely a personal behaviour thing and nothing to do with any technology.

Re: macOS in Svelte

#32

Post by edoceo » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:38 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #26

edoceo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xfce on Arch then? Shit, my Gentoo/Xfce gives me that too. Apple is all hype. In the last 12 months there's been loud threads on HN about Apple and MS breakage and user hostility. Meanwhile, my old installs keep working, out of my way. I've been through a few big Xfce updates too - it got better, objectively better and didn't break anything - and never once (since 2007) has it disrespected me with any user hostile $B…

No means no. Stop bugging people and forcing your dogma on them.

Yea, sorry I "forced" you read my opinion.

Re: macOS in Svelte

#33

Post by scns » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:38 AM UTC

theranger wrote: post #16

grawprog wrote: post #10

Gotta be honest, the last mac I ever used ran OS8 I think, maybe 9, it was one of the classic Mac os's either way. I know this is just a UI recreation and not the actual OS but as a long time KDE user, like over a decade, I can't help but think meh, why does this UI get so much praise? I can make my desktop look, act and behave literally any way I want, I can modify every single aspect of every single thing on my des…

Because I consider my time more valuable than the cost of the ecosystem. I have no interest to tweak anything, I use the computer to earn my paycheck and constant tinkering and tweaking is not part of it. Open source and free software is free only if you do not value your time enough.

Open source and free software is free. Even if you value your time.

Sorry for being a pedant.

Re: macOS in Svelte

#34

Post by linguae » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:39 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #10

Gotta be honest, the last mac I ever used ran OS8 I think, maybe 9, it was one of the classic Mac os's either way. I know this is just a UI recreation and not the actual OS but as a long time KDE user, like over a decade, I can't help but think meh, why does this UI get so much praise? I can make my desktop look, act and behave literally any way I want, I can modify every single aspect of every single thing on my des…

As a long time Mac user, in my opinion what has historically distinguished the Mac from other platforms is the high degree of UI/UX consistency across applications. Mac users historically valued software products that conformed to the Apple Human Interface Guidelines and tended to shun non-compliant products; this is why Microsoft Word 5.1 was so well-received by classic Mac users while Microsoft Word 6 was rejected by many of these users (https://lowendmac.com/2013/microsoft-word-for-mac-faq/). While consistency among popular Mac apps isn't (and never has been) perfect, there's much more consistency among Mac apps than among Windows apps or among the X11 ecosystem (though, to be fair, consistency improves when sticking to apps designed for a specific desktop environment such as KDE or GNOME).

This is just my opinion, but I've found the classic Mac OS and pre-Yosemite Mac OS X Apple Human Interface Guidelines to be quite well thought of. In fact, while I prefer the technical underpinnings of Mac OS X to those of the classic Mac OS, I prefer the classic Mac OS's interface, which seems more intuitive to me.

Having the ability to theme one's desktop is nice, but I prefer having an ecosystem of well-designed applications that all conform to a common set of well-designed UI/UX guidelines. This is what has kept me on the Mac all these years, and my disappointment with the Linux desktop is that while it's easy for me to theme the desktop, the applications themselves are inconsistent, theming is only skin-deep, and what does not help is the fact that there is no single toolkit, desktop, and/or UI/UX guidelines (though, once again, I can achieve some greater consistency by sticking to Qt/KDE or GTK/GNOME apps). Granted, I admit the holy grail for me is for those well-designed applications to also have customizable UIs.

However, in an age where Electron apps are becoming more common and where M1 Macs can run some iOS apps, there is less cross-application consistency these days on the Mac. I regularly use Zoom and Slack, which clearly stand out when compared to applications that use the native AppKit API's controls.

Re: macOS in Svelte

#35

Post by Operyl » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:40 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #31

Operyl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I blame the Desktop Environment? Nowhere did I state such, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I find the interoperability of my devices _great_ and I can't get that with Linux. I'd rather spend those hours tweaking servers, or projects, than some pointless (and typically subpar) Linux DE. I don't want to deal with that, as others have pointed out.

It's this thing you keep saying where endless tweaking is necessary. That is not true as I have stated multiple times. If you feel the need to constantly tweak things when you have the option to and can't help yourself that is purely a personal behaviour thing and nothing to do with any technology.

I only said this once, but I know I am not the only one. You asked, and you got an answer, on why people prefer systems where people get what they consider sane defaults. I have an endless curiosity, and if the way I need to deal with it is by making limiting decisions on purpose (while still getting a perfectly capable set of operating systems) then I will. Does my choice to limit what I know I have a weakness in mean I lack self control? I could still go after Linux and the endless dream if I wanted, but I chose not to?

Re: macOS in Svelte

#36

Post by grawprog » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:41 AM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #30

grawprog wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide some details other then just 'because we like it'? That's not really explaining things at all. That's just an emotional defensive response with nothing to back it up.

Can you stop being obnoxious about other people’s preferences and just get on with your own shit if you’re so happy with it?

I asked a simple question and every single response has been emotionally driven and has provided no answers to my question other than

'don't judge my purchases.'

I was genuinely curious as to what people actually saw in the UI, given this is HN.

Instead, it's just Apple fan justification with nothing other than

'muh feelings.'

I'm sorry you can't handle,that people question something you like and you can't actually explain why without getting all upset.

Re: macOS in Svelte

#37

Post by eropple » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:41 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #31

Operyl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did I blame the Desktop Environment? Nowhere did I state such, so please stop putting words in my mouth. I find the interoperability of my devices _great_ and I can't get that with Linux. I'd rather spend those hours tweaking servers, or projects, than some pointless (and typically subpar) Linux DE. I don't want to deal with that, as others have pointed out.

It's this thing you keep saying where endless tweaking is necessary. That is not true as I have stated multiple times. If you feel the need to constantly tweak things when you have the option to and can't help yourself that is purely a personal behaviour thing and nothing to do with any technology.

An environment that encourages rabbit-holing is going to be an environment less preferred by people who don't want to rabbit-hole.

You can say that about KDE. You can also say that about "running Linux on a computer with a discrete graphics card".

I do it. (I'm posting this from a Thinkpad with a Quadro, running Fedora, and I have to uninstall a kernel module when I go traveling in order to disable it so I get more than two hours of battery life.) I chose to. Maybe you did too. That doesn't mean you need to Leap To Its Defense every time somebody says it's not for them.

Re: macOS in Svelte

#38

Post by Klonoar » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:41 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #14

Klonoar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Why do people pay the premium for this? Because... >I can make my desktop act and behave literally any way I want, I can modify every single aspect of every single thing on my desktop to suit my work flows and everything I do on a computer exactly so my computer does exactly what I want, when I want, exactly how I want it to in the exact way I want things to be done. I haven't changed much over the years, i've copie…

Deal with what? I selected some click and point options from a very clear and easy to read menu, downloaded some themes from a nice shiny, easy to use theme downloader, it took me all of a half hour to an hour or so to set things up about a decade ago and I have had to do a minimal amount of work since. Little tweaks,improvements here and there as I find better ways of doing things but otherwise, it was not much work…

>If you can use a computer to do basic tasks, it's really not hard. If you can't navigate some menus that have confusing titles like, desktop settings and themes and display options and widgets and you can't click and drag things around, whatever OS you use will be a struggle.

I did the Unix porn thing for years, it got old. Not a single bit of that sounds appealing at this point in my life.

Re: macOS in Svelte

#39

Post by viraptor » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:42 AM UTC

Klonoar wrote: post #11

grawprog wrote: post #10

Gotta be honest, the last mac I ever used ran OS8 I think, maybe 9, it was one of the classic Mac os's either way. I know this is just a UI recreation and not the actual OS but as a long time KDE user, like over a decade, I can't help but think meh, why does this UI get so much praise? I can make my desktop look, act and behave literally any way I want, I can modify every single aspect of every single thing on my des…

>Why do people pay the premium for this? Because... >I can make my desktop act and behave literally any way I want, I can modify every single aspect of every single thing on my desktop to suit my work flows and everything I do on a computer exactly so my computer does exactly what I want, when I want, exactly how I want it to in the exact way I want things to be done. I haven't changed much over the years, i've copie…

> Most people don't want to deal with this

There's nothing to "deal with". You can skip all of that and have a nice KDE/plasma desktop. On the other hand you have the builtin option to do things that require 3rd party apps on MacOS (caffeine, magnet, etc.)

Re: macOS in Svelte

#40

Post by contrast » Sat, Aug 14, 2021, 7:44 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #19

Razengan wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do people pay the premium for this UI Apple forces you to use? Because we like it. Why does that make you so upset? You could have spent the 10 minutes you spent typing that rant out in being productive with whatever you have instead of raging about my purchases with my money.

Can you provide some details other then just 'because we like it'? That's not really explaining things at all. That's just an emotional defensive response with nothing to back it up.

You should ask yourself whether, after posting the same accusatory rant time after time after time to strangers on the internet, people are going to conclude that you are providing the rational side of the argument.