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Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

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Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over the past two centuries, billions of humans have been lifted out of poverty > by entrepreneurs seeking great fortunes No. It was technological innovation, made by the brightest heads of our species that did science themselves or at publicly funded institutions. The private sector took these innovations to manufacture and accumulate, while the innovators were criminally underpaid.

Honest question: have you ever successfully created and released a new product? Innovation isolated in a lab is all well and good, but ultimately does nothing to directly improve lives. It's only the first step in a long journey. Now you need to figure out how do scale up production? How do we control costs to keep it affordable to the average person? How do we get people aware of the product? Who do we target as ear…

> Now you need to figure out how do scale up production? How do we control costs to keep it affordable to the average person? How do we get people aware of the product? Who do we target as early adopters? How do we incorporate feedback from real usage back into the engineering of the product? How do we design the product so it's intuitive and appealing to use? How can we convince investors to take the risk and give us the capital needed to get this process under way? How do we plan and budget for production to accommodate projected growth? Are there legal or regulatory considerations? How do we coordinate all the people that need to work together to make this happen?

These are all valid questions whose answers are necessary, but ultimately they are solved problems for which we often can just copy the solution from previous iterations. Somebody just needs to do it and I don’t see why these persons should get far far more than the lions share. Let them get remunerated and also substantially, but not the most.

The vast majority of entrepreneurs does not deserve renumerations of such high proportions, they just get them because they can. Past accumulation, capital structures, capital dependency, path dependencies - which ultimately are all just positions of power - allow the entrepreneur class to squeeze out such high returns.

But they’re not even the root of the problem, because they are squeezed out by the financial class who has the privilege of squeezing others out by virtue of having squeezed out others before.

We have these systems of hierarchical exploitation and accumulation for thousands of years, but saw only real improvement with technological innovation.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But people did own a $20M car factory. And it grew and grew. Once it hits $20M, you're basically forced to sell a part of it, and once those parts grow over, you have to sell another part, and another part...

You don't have to sell any physical piece of it, only shares in it. The company can still grow, but individuals would not be able to hoard the wealth it creates.

So let's say i have 1000 bitcoins... bought them for $0.01 a piece, and held them... now the price is around 40k.. so I have to sell half of them to keep only the $20M? Tomorrow the price will be $15k, so i'll be below again... what do I do now? The day after tomorrow they might be 100k.. sell more?

I create a bakery... it's successfull, it grows to 21M... now I have to sell a part of it... and it grows.. sell another part.. it grows.. sell another part.. what then? What if the second coowner bought a half of it, and the price has gone over 41M, do we now both have to sell a part of it? What if it loses value?

What if you own a farm somewhere, with many hectares of nice land, and someone decides to build a railway and a highway there, and that land becomes worth many millions overnight?

Hard limits on wealth are not practical. Taxing private persons for taking out and using that wealth is the solution.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think you hit the nail on the head, I think what we're seeing is a belief that the money being invested by billionaires is not doing anything useful, that's why people are calling for it to be taken by the government and redistributed.

> I think what we're seeing is a belief that the money being invested by billionaires is not doing anything useful I mean, is it doing anything useful? "Money Invested" is basically a number sitting in a giant key-value store at a brokerage, associated with a stock ticker or some other ownership totem. If I buy 100 shares of Walmart, it's not like Walmart suddenly has an extra $15,000 in their bank account they can s…

I did not mean for my statement to suggest that it is doing something useful, just that the belief (either way) is what matters here.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> […] and why virtually no economists support them. You mean besides Piketty, Stiglitz (Nobel), and Krugman (Nobel)? * https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/17/economists-stiglitz-and-pike... * https://twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1088529094478872578 While I'm sure he's good in his specialty, it seems like Cochrane does not understand macroeconomics and how debt-financed government spending works: * http://krugman.blogs.nyt…

Only 7% of surveyed top economists disagreed with the statement that a wealth tax would be much more difficult to enforce than the existing tax code. https://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/wealth-taxes/

> We invited our US panel to express their views on three separate issues related to the wealth tax: […]

And how was the criteria for this panel chosen? What would a random sampling of, say, NBER affiliated scholars give?

Given previous surveys from Chicago Booth were done, it seems that there's an ideological slant to those they ask for advice:

* https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/ideology-and-ec...

Further, given how wrong the Chicago school has been on macroeconomics for the last few decades, I would question anything coming out of there. Fama and French for example have done good work on markets, but they are and were wrong on deficit spending and stimulus since 2009.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#235

_Some_ millionaires call for...

...a wealth transfer to Moderna. There. Saved everyone a read.

wait, is "covid is a ploy to transfer wealth to the companies providing a vaccine against the greatest global pandemic in a century" an actual anti-vax talking point?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#236
post #92
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be implying that governments should be more attentive in taxing externalities.

Indirectly, yeah. Correctly calculating and taxing externalities might have prevented 'bad' billionaires from being made, but doesn't give us a plan on where to go from here. Lots of gray area, though. Lots of arguments were made against Gates when Microsoft's value increased with anti-competitive practices, but it's hard to argue with what it's been spent on today.

The problem is that then billionaires spend millions on media and social media campaigns to carpet bomb people with the idea that up is down and that their venture isn't really a negative externality.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#237
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think you hit the nail on the head, I think what we're seeing is a belief that the money being invested by billionaires is not doing anything useful, that's why people are calling for it to be taken by the government and redistributed.

That is because every good investment causes deflation, which in other words is increased economic efficiency. Capital must be misallocated in order to create inflation. It's a huge misconception that inflation is good for the economy. What actually happens, is that the economy on the whole gets more inefficient and wealth concentrates.

Inflation does not cause wealth concentration. Inflation acts as a tax on hoarding money and reduces wealth concentration.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#238
post #81
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So wealth tax then! It’s really just a question of finding metrics and then sending people bills to force them to liquidate or whatever

And what if the stock valuation crashes before they can pay the bill? On hook for money they don't have? Seems almost impossible to implement

There are already things in tax law for this kind of stuff. You can write off the losses. If you're rich enough to be hit by this stuff, you're rich enough for an accountant and lawyer to help out with this kind of thing.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#239
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that is not really to do with equality, it's to do with who runs companies and where investment in the economy comes from, and how everyone's basic needs are met. This would take the ownership of huge swathes of the companies in the world out of the hands of the people who created them and operate them and into the hands of random executives with little or no track record. You're not going to meet an…

> For example, Elon Musk would be forced to sell all but a minuscule sliver of his shares in Tesla, SpaceX, etc and give the proceeds to the tax man. He'd be out on his arse and replaced by an executive hired by whoever bought the shares. It would be the death of Tesla and SpaceX as we know them. The point is that Musk would/should never have gotten to such an oversized amount of control in the first place, and thus…

It's not clear to me at all that Tesla or SpaceX, or a whole list of other entrepreneur run companies, if run by a workers committees or hired executive team would even still exist at all, and if they did they'd look nothing like what they are now. Look at all the big companies that were launched by founder owners, they all slump into mediocrity once the visionary leadership is gone. Yours is an argument for enforced mediocrity and mandated groupthink, with no mechanism for renewal. We know how that works out, it's been tried over and over.

>Meanwhile, these Marxist experiments aren't broiling the planet for an extra 50 years...

Oh come on, the Soviet Union and China have been responsible for catastrophic environmental mismanagement on a scale that dwarfs anything in the democratic world. Authoritarian economic systems are only possible within authoritarian political systems, and as soon as you do that you're on a path to disaster.

Re: Millionaires call for an emergency tax on billionaires

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Billionaires are a very different animal. You don't go after the billionaires, but after the banks and such that the billionaires use. FACTA and the long arm of the IRS caused a lot of behaviour changes in the banking and finance industry: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance...

That's only for evasion, I'm talking about avoidance. Most billionaires can easily spend their entire lifetime avoiding taxes. Taking out a low-interest ELOC against unrealized gains is 100% legal and a low-risk transaction for a bank. No amount of "going after the banks" changes that.

> 100% legal and a low-risk transaction for a bank. No amount of "going after the banks" changes that.

With the caveat that I don’t know if this is a good idea or not, a government can absolutely change the law if they want to give themselves the powers to prevent that from happening.

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