Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#101

Post by kstenerud » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:08 PM UTC

I'm saddened (but not surprised) at the negative reaction to the google boob picture. The fact is, there's nothing bad about that picture at all, and Tom is not a misogynist for posting it.

Take a close look. There are 3 people in that photo. All three are smiling. All three are having fun. What exactly is wrong with that photo?

Is it bad because it portrays the woman as a sex object? Why is that bad? Does it means that all women are sex objects? Obviously not. Does it mean that the woman in the photo is ONLY good for sex? Obviously not.

So what's wrong with the photo? Is it because it encourages men to think of all women that way? Has any such sort of causal link been found? How many men at your office slap you on the ass on a daily basis? How many of them take you right there, on the office desk, just like in a pornographic magazine's depiction? What percentage of men behave like creeps? 1%? Do you honestly think that the only thing keeping the other 99% from going on a rape orgy is that they haven't been fed enough sexist propaganda? Do you think that the 1% would magically stop if you could just remove all material you find objectionable from the world?

Who is to blame for the inappropriate behavior of these creeps? Licentious media? Just like violent video games turn our children into vicious killers? Just like marijuana turns people into psychopaths? If someone stabs someone with a kitchen knife, do you blame Henkel? If someone steals a car, do you blame Grand Theft Auto? If someone rapes a woman, do you blame pornography?

Blaming someone else for a person's bad behavior is naive, childish, and dangerous. The person to correct is the person who committed the act.

So what's wrong with that photo? Is it because its sexual nature offended some people? Some people are offended by a picture of two guys kissing. Should we condemn that too?

Do you believe in the possibility of some women actually ENJOYING being treated like a sex object? If not, your objection becomes very understandable. It's fairly common to wrongly assume that everyone else thinks the same way as you do. If the thought of being treated that way disgusts you, then you'd probably assume that nobody in their right mind would enjoy it. You'd probably go through a laundry list of reasons why someone would participate:

* She was coerced into it

* She's not in her right mind

* She was drugged or drunk

The problem is that this line of thinking leads to the misogynistic view that women are somehow incapable of making their own decisions (we see this already in legislation that excuses the woman for having sex while drunk, but not the man). Suddenly, woman is a poor, defenseless creature who must be protected from everybody, especially herself.

So what's wrong with that photo? All three members are consenting and enjoying themselves. Who are you to criticize their choice?

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#102

Post by cheez » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:09 PM UTC

ryandvm wrote: post #78

solipsist wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence b…

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university.

Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie)

Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup

Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either.

School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER.

Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electronics and gadgets, lets go shopping!

So society is completely geared towards beating it out of them. As the father of a pre-teen who has probably solved more software bugs than most her age and is deeply into robotics, it is a constant, constant battle even though she loves the field.

Let's not forget all the aunties, grandmas and neighbours who don't encourage tech curiosity for girls. "Hey, here's another shitty fashion toy for your birthday" meanwhile, the girl is thinking "I really wanted a gizmo... oh well." Even though dad specifically sent around suggestions for the next robot she wants to build.

Your universities can want females all they want, but society... I want to punch it sometimes.

Edit: I should mention that TV is getting a little better with this. There are a couple of female leads in shows that are technically oriented.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#103

Post by jdp23 » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:09 PM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #67

bethling wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we need to get to 50% - I would just like it so that women don't feel like they're pushed out - some of it is cultural (it's easier to believe that you can't do something as well as the next person when the messages around you reinforce that this isn't the right field to you) - but some of it is a negative atmosphere created by the sexist jerks. And it's not most, or even many of the guys I've worked wi…

it just takes one or two to complete ruin an environment People seem to forget this. All it takes it the complacency of most men to let those one or two blowhards create a hostile environment.

That's a great point. The HN community's a great microcosm. There are a few sexist jerks, and a number of guys who routinely defend sexist jerks. Of course there are also plenty of guys who speak out about sexism, and then there's what seems like the the vast majority: guys who would rather not talk about it. The net result, my women friends tell me, is that the overall feel is hostile to women.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#104

Post by peterwwillis » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:11 PM UTC

wisty wrote: post #77

roc wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Is that really what differentiates programming from fields with more social interaction (like sales) or fields with more of a human aspect (like health care and medicine)?" If you're implying that programming just isn't work that most women are interested in, you'll have to more-precisely indicate what it is about programming that puts them off, given that accounting has no such problems. Every accounting departme…

Job stability? Reasonable hours? Promotion prospects, without working like a maniac? Women tend to value those things, often more than men. Also, women in IT are often undervalued. A boss will assume they have no real talent, for some reason. While a guy who shows any ability will often be seen as a genius. People just don't assume that girls are hardcore hackers, while they assume that any guy who talks the talk (an…

* > A boss will assume they have no real talent, for some reason. While a guy who shows any ability will often be seen as a genius. People just don't assume that girls are hardcore hackers, while they assume that any guy who talks the talk (and wears are really bad t-shirt) is.*

IMHO, promotion is rarely done based on merit. Welcome to corporate life.

(Also, you have to actually show your boss you are a hardcore hacker. My boss will assume I have no talent too unless I demonstrate it)

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#105

Post by jdp23 » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:12 PM UTC

akeefer wrote: post #84

switch wrote: post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

There's no single reason why there are fewer women than men in programming, so asking if sexism is "the real reason" is asking the wrong question. Instead, you should ask, "is it a real reason" why there are fewer women in programming? I think that the answer there is probably yes, and I think that if you talk to enough female engineers, they'll tell you that the sexism and insensitivity is a turnoff to them. It obvi…

Great point. NCWIT has a good summary of the various factors leading to underrepresentation of women at http://www.ncwit.org/thefacts and the book "Unlocking the clubhouse" goes into a lot more detail.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#106

Post by bethling » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:13 PM UTC

silverlake wrote: post #9

I skimmed the comments on Tom's boob pic. Most of the women also thought it was funny. Only a few women were loudly critical. Do we solve sexism only when 100% of women are satisfied? That's going to take a while.

I think the how you see the context of the photo has a lot to do with how offensive it is - if it's a just a random photo from a party, then it's something I'd shake my head at and sigh.

If it were something on an official Google page (which seems to be how some people in the comments are taking it), it would be downright offensive.

As something in a "serious" article - it bothers me - not enough to be 'outraged', but it is indicative of a lot of the issues women have in technology. There are times where it's just not appropriate. It's fine to like looking a big breasted + attractive women, but also realize that women are made uncomfortable when they're put into environments where they feel like who we are/what we can do is second to what we are. Photos like that create such an environment - and take away from the article.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#107

Post by code_duck » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:14 PM UTC

Who is "we"? Oh, that's right - the sexist creeps who apparently make up the software industry he's referring to.

You encounter this anywhere dominated by one sex or the other. It's not at all unique to the software industry.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#108

Post by michaelchisari » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:19 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #93

michaelchisari wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this would refute the hypothesis that women avoid IT due to sexism. No, it wouldn't refute anything. For instance, in the medical field, we've had a hundred years to correct the gender imbalance, and people have fought hard, both in education and in hiring practices, to get it where it is. So, while the medical field may have as many sexist jerks, there have been failsafes put into place to correct for their behavior…

If we are less sexist than the financial industry, but finance has more women, it strongly suggests that sexism isn't what's scaring women away. As for "failsafes" and "procedures", could you tell me how these procedures prevent sexism in JP Morgan Prime Brokerage operation, but not in JP Morgan IT? Or if you want to push things back to the college level, how they prevent sexism in Biology 101 but not in CS 101?

As for "failsafes" and "procedures", could you tell me how these procedures prevent sexism in JP Morgan Prime Brokerage operation

If you'll re-read my comment, I was talking about failsafes and procedures in the medical field.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#109

Post by dpark » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:20 PM UTC

cheez wrote: post #102

ryandvm wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are these obstacles? Employers are dying to hire female programmers. Universities are dying for females to enter CS programs. Right now, a women that sets her mind on programming has an easier chance of landing a job than any given guy. Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. Why aren't we just as concerned that there are far fewer male hairdressers than female?

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electro…

Society does push both genders toward and away from particular careers; look at the imbalance in nurses or teachers for the other side. However, this has nothing to do with sexism in the workplace. It's not sexism in the software industry that causes society to push women away from the sciences. (That's not to say that sexism doesn't exist in the software industry or that it's not a problem.)

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#110

Post by pickeju » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:21 PM UTC

michaelchisari wrote: post #67

bethling wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think we need to get to 50% - I would just like it so that women don't feel like they're pushed out - some of it is cultural (it's easier to believe that you can't do something as well as the next person when the messages around you reinforce that this isn't the right field to you) - but some of it is a negative atmosphere created by the sexist jerks. And it's not most, or even many of the guys I've worked wi…

it just takes one or two to complete ruin an environment People seem to forget this. All it takes it the complacency of most men to let those one or two blowhards create a hostile environment.

Amen. As a lady dev, I think this is a universal truth. I don't think this particular male-dominated field is probably any more sexist than other male-dominated fields, though.

IMHO: What holds some women back more than anything is unwillingness to be a potential lighting rod everywhere you go. I have kind of a pioneering spirit, and am willing to fight the sometimes daily battle to be recognized more for my merit than my high heels. But I absolutely understand why another woman would find that kind of effort exhausting and unworthy of her time. Some people are happy standing out in a crowd and others are not. Most people are crowd people. It's not good or bad, just a preference.