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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#441

Post by velcii »

Cookingboy wrote: post #429
velcii wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, you can move goalposts all you want, but the bottom line is companies that permit remote work are going to get the best talent, from all over the world, and those companies are going to blow the ones that does not allow remote work, right out of the water... All this romantic "oh I have to look you in the eyes" sentiment will disappear when push comes to shove, that it when you see your best people leave for com…

I'm not moving goal posts at all, I'm simply giving you concrete examples of things you cannot accomplish as well under full-remote. I never said you can't be a fully remote code monkey, and you may be surprised to find out that the "best people" aren't code monkeys. > but the bottom line is companies that permit remote work are going to get the best talent, from all over the world, and those companies are going to b…

>fully remote code monkey, and you may be surprised to find out that the "best people" aren't code monkeys.

Very curious that you have loaded it with the assumption that "remote" implies being a "code monkey".

>they have not blown FAANG companies "right tout of the water".

Sure no one is saying it ll happen overnight. Curious reasoning again, by the way.

>a very small percentage of people put remote work as their number 1

Very curious again, because even in HN there were a lot of stories where people are willing to even resign, to keep the freedom that they discovered with not having to work in strict constraints.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#442

Post by rualca »

lytefm wrote: post #430
sbacic wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's happening here is disintermediation - the employees in SEE and EE have realized that they can cut out the middleman (their local employer) and work directly with foreign clients. This makes the lower cost of living the employee's, rather than the employer's, competitive advantage. It also means that these local employers now have to compete on two fronts - for labor with their foreign competitors who have grea…

I doubt that a large amount of programming jobs will be outsourced to cheaper countries. Having a good understanding of the problem domain in the same language and time zone as the employer is extremely valuable. I guess that local extremes for wages in areas with high living costs like in silicon valley will drop when it's possible to work remotely. But I don't see why rates would drop across the board as long as de…

> Having a good understanding of the problem domain in the same language and time zone as the employer is extremely valuable.

Sharing a common language is not a problem at all, nor is sharing (or meeting) in the same time zone.

I'd point the exact opposite regarding timezones, in fact. Not sharing a time zone means you can post a question to get yourself unblocked at the end of the day, and you'll already have the answer waiting for you once you log back next morning.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#443

Post by grawprog »

dang wrote: post #438
grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

Please don't post flamewar comments to HN. It leads to repetitive, nasty discussions, and worse. We're trying to go the other way here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I apologize for my comment. I posted thoughtlessly while in a bad mood after a rough day. I wasn't trying to start a flame war. I really didn't mean to start such a huge thing. I felt fairly ashamed seeing all the responses it generated. It wasn't productive and isn't accurate and doesn't even really reflect my beliefs.

If anyone who was offended by my attitude and comment reads this I apologize. Anyone who works hard for someone else should be valued, whether you work with your mind or body.

My comment was ignorant and just not true.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#444

Post by dang »

grawprog wrote: post #443
dang wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post flamewar comments to HN. It leads to repetitive, nasty discussions, and worse. We're trying to go the other way here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I apologize for my comment. I posted thoughtlessly while in a bad mood after a rough day. I wasn't trying to start a flame war. I really didn't mean to start such a huge thing. I felt fairly ashamed seeing all the responses it generated. It wasn't productive and isn't accurate and doesn't even really reflect my beliefs. If anyone who was offended by my attitude and comment reads this I apologize. Anyone who works har…

It happens. I appreciate the reply.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#445

Post by wreath »

j7ake wrote: post #250
peakaboo wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't wait to get back to the office. > I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) > It also hel…

Making own food that is the same quality as the hot foods at cafeteria is easily 1 hour a day extra. Not being around colleagues affects more than just self-discipline, you lose the random encounters with colleagues that often leads to new ideas and collaborations. These differences are real. And even if productivity is not affected, the new ideas that normally sparked from random interactions are diminished.

I dont even care about random encounters that lead to ideas, i miss them because they were random and had relationship at work with people with whom i have no work overlap whatsoever,yet we bonded while making coffee and other type of office routine activities. Now, i rarely recognize people on slack

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#446

Post by Cookingboy »

velcii wrote: post #441
Cookingboy wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not moving goal posts at all, I'm simply giving you concrete examples of things you cannot accomplish as well under full-remote. I never said you can't be a fully remote code monkey, and you may be surprised to find out that the "best people" aren't code monkeys. > but the bottom line is companies that permit remote work are going to get the best talent, from all over the world, and those companies are going to b…

>fully remote code monkey, and you may be surprised to find out that the "best people" aren't code monkeys. Very curious that you have loaded it with the assumption that "remote" implies being a "code monkey". >they have not blown FAANG companies "right tout of the water". Sure no one is saying it ll happen overnight. Curious reasoning again, by the way. >a very small percentage of people put remote work as their num…

>Very curious again, because even in HN there were a lot of stories where people are willing to even resign, to keep the freedom that they discovered with not having to work in strict constraints

What do you mean by "even HN"? HN is extremely biased toward super introverted anti-social people who prefer working alone and not have human interaction. Using HN as a data point is about as biased as it gets on this topic.

Think logically for a moment, if the majority of people have "working remote" as their number 1 priority regardless of nature of work or compensation, then places like Silicon Valley wouldn't have existed in the first place. The good engineers would all have left and taken a lower paid remote contracting job working from home (and some indeed have in the past).

At the end of the day we do have internal survey data from FB and Google and other companies, vast majority of them do not want full remote work.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#447

Post by dan-robertson »

ridaj wrote: post #389
dan-robertson wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pay in low-COL satellite offices of big companies isn’t massively different from pay in Silicon Valley (averages are more different as more senior people will be in the main office) so it isn’t obvious to me that pay far away from the office should be massively lower. One argument for this to be the case is that an employee could reasonably threaten to move to Silicon Valley for higher pay (at another company.) Obvio…

> Pay in low-COL satellite offices of big companies isn’t massively different from pay in Silicon Valley (averages are more different as more senior people will be in the main office) Software engineer pay is quite different, between, say, London and Paris, or between Switzerland and any place in Europe... And it has more to do with talent competition than cost of living. France or Germany aren't inexpensive places t…

I meant offices in the US. I don’t have a good reason for the variation in Europe. Above I wrote:

One argument for this to be the case is that an employee could reasonably threaten to move to Silicon Valley for higher pay (at another company.)

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#448

Post by journey_16162 »

oAlbe wrote: post #427
SynasterBeiter wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why you're supposed to be a contractor at that pay level.

What's the difference with being a contractor? You still have to pay taxes, right?

Probably the contractor gets to pay lower taxes than an employee.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#449

Post by velcii »

Cookingboy wrote: post #446
velcii wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>fully remote code monkey, and you may be surprised to find out that the "best people" aren't code monkeys. Very curious that you have loaded it with the assumption that "remote" implies being a "code monkey". >they have not blown FAANG companies "right tout of the water". Sure no one is saying it ll happen overnight. Curious reasoning again, by the way. >a very small percentage of people put remote work as their num…

>Very curious again, because even in HN there were a lot of stories where people are willing to even resign, to keep the freedom that they discovered with not having to work in strict constraints What do you mean by "even HN"? HN is extremely biased toward super introverted anti-social people who prefer working alone and not have human interaction. Using HN as a data point is about as biased as it gets on this topic.…

>What do you mean by "even HN"?

I only meant that "some forum that we both are reading"

>The good engineers would all have left and taken a lower paid remote contracting job working from home..

Not many comparable remote positions were available, and not may even probably didn't consider the possibility, because it was so taboo.

This is how bad stuff that existed so long in a society eventually change. 9-5 work in an office is an evil that should not have existed where it could be avoided.

> vast majority of them do not want full remote work.

Great, good for them. But that is not stopping a lot of others from doing so.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#450

Post by nextlevelwizard »

goldenkey wrote: post #354
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, seeth more

I know I didn't tell you what you want to hear. Independence will help you. God forbid there is a cataclysmic event, you will have thanked me for putting the boot up your ass.

Sure. You can keep telling that to yourself if it makes you life less miserable.
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