Earlier quoted context omitted.
> you're already overpaid Assuming that: a) A market such as the dev labor market is fairly efficient, and increasingly so b) Agents on both the supply and demand sides transact freely and uncoerced c) Individual feelings regarding the value of the work being carried out are meaningless There is no thing such as "overpaid".
I would say over and underpaid both do exist in scenarios where one party has undue/extortive power over the other. They don't exist in a well-functioning labor market.
For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
301–310 of 461 posts
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#302Earlier quoted context omitted.
And what if the only remote working option is to get paid less? Is that still "slave mentality"?
Getting payed less is an idiotic thing. You use LESS resources working remotely. I suggest you use that statement as a screener for finding companies worth your time.
On top of the fact that most people are less productive working from home. Everyone here seems to think that they are the work from home king who does 10x work when not at the office citing distractions (as if people aren't IM-ing you just as often), lack of commute (this doesn't actually count to your work hours anyway), less breaks (expect just like how you didn't remember what you forgot, you only remember the times when you worked whole day in the flow and didn't take breaks and forget the days when you mostly you browsed HackerNews and took that 45 minute coffee break and picked up your kid from the school and still quit at the normal office time)
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right, that means there must be an archive.is link for it and of course there is one: https://archive.is/qK9Mk
OT, but how do archive sites work? I assume they don't have full subscriptions to everything, so how do they get around all the different paywalls?
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#304My company (a large multinational bank) (about 100K employees) introduce their "future way of working" back in April. This came after most of our offices in different regions working from home due to covid. Much to my surprise, this was actually pretty well thought out. This new way, would give people the flexibility to choose wether they work from the office or work from home, or even combine both. (They also offere…
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#305Once all the furor has subsided and the pandemic ebbs, I think it's safe to say that many companies will got back to in-person collaboration and others will remain remote. It's clear that remote work is feasible, but not everyone enjoys it. Rather than argue the pros and cons, I'm more interested in seeing how distributed organizations will evolve. Slack and Zoom are getting the job done, but they are wearying. Organ…
Zapier wrote an entire book on the subject: https://cdn.zapier.com/storage/learn_ebooks/e4fbeb81f76c0c13...
I've only read a bit of it, but what leaps out at me is that it's clearly written prepandemic. It assumes its audience only knows in-person work, and remote work is this weird radical thing that only a few companies do. Understandable, as that was true 18 months ago, but wow have things changed!
Oddly, I bet it'll be hard or impossible for Zapier to write an updated edition, as they don't know what the pandemic has been like for the rest of us. Heck, I bet the experience of pandemic remote work varies widely.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#306I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…
So basically, you lack the self-discipline to be satisfied with your choices, and prefer to be enlisted in some type of nanny service? Cool, I'll opt out and instead focus on bettering my defecits so I don't need to outsource my mental fortitude.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#307I'm surprised so many people are so angry about the pay cut. Using my company's simulator, the pay cut seems to be at most 15% of the base salary and most likely less than that. In my case, considering cost of living, it would certainly be most advantageous to work remotely. I would save more money and live in a much nicer place.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your reasons are mostly individual and to some extent based on a lifestyle that you got used to because working remote wasn't an option. I often hear "i don't have a workspace/desk at my home" as a pro-commute argument. But the reason you don't have that desk is because when you moved into your flat, you didn't think of this. But if more and more employers allow to work remotely, people will make different choices on…
I don't want to pay more for larger apartment just so I can have dedicated office room and exact same argument goes both ways. I live 20minutes away from my office, that is by choice. I was even considering moving closer (so I could ditch car to a bike or maybe even walk) here I read that every one has 2-3 hour commute, that is on YOU and YOUR poor choices.
And thats a perfectly valid choice that you should be allowed to make. If you want to work at an office, you would make sure during the hiring phase that your employer agrees and provides that office to you. If the employer says that you HAVE to work from home, that is a factor that you should consider when accepting the job offer.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#309- Remote work is not the end of the world. Most software teams found a way to function during the pandemic. That's a lesson both companies and developers learned.
- The relevance of on site, in person meetings is still important but not required 100% of the time. Being flexible here enables casting a wider net when hiring. Especially with specialist skills, this is important as convincing people to move to where your office is is hard. People now regard on site, in person meetings as quality time. It's something you put in your calendar because it doesn't happen every day and needs coordinating.
- Freelancers can work remotely or on site. However, you pay more for on site as it involves travel and inconveniencing them. The flip side is that if you go with remote freelancers, you are not restricted to your local area and you can engage specialists wherever they are. This was already a thing before covid. All my projects in the last five years we had at least some remote workers and I've been remote myself most of the last eight years.
- Having remote people in daily standups (in so far people still bother with those) on a video call has been the default for quite a while in all the places I've worked on site. This being awkward and annoying has made standups less popular over the last five years. We do weekly company wide video calls and lots of video only meetings (1 on 1, or small groups). It's rare for any of that to involve meeting rooms, projection screens, etc. The only proper standups I've attended were while doing the occasional onsite freelancing project. The last of those was a few years ago.
- Development processes are adapting. Post-its are no longer part of meetings because remote participants can't read those. All that stuff has long transitioned to issue trackers. Either it's tracked there or it didn't happen. With standups gone as well, that's two nails into the waterfall masquerading as agile style of Scrum that was the sad reality across our industry until Covid. Likewise bull shit bingo with Fibbonacci cards (aka estimation meetings) is no longer a thing. Nor are retrospectives with rooms full of upset people screaming at each other (we've all been there). Scrum was heavily dependent on on-site meetings and juggling lots of bits of paper. The remote/digital forms of all this exists of course but was always a bit awkward. Remotely doing these meetings just leads to remote people muting themselves, turning off their video, and reading HN or doing whatever while people go through the moves of doing everything "by the book". Scrum is just not optimal with remote people involved. What is increasingly replacing scrum is more Kanban like in nature and decouples planning and release (i.e. continuous deployments) heart beats. We plan in sprints but develop and release every day and use asynchronous tools to coordinate. Remote optimized forms of Agile processes look very different than Scrum and a lot more like what big OSS projects have been practicing for decades where scrum was never a thing.
- Having remote people is convenient for both companies in highly competitive markets (e.g. the Valley) where talent is scarce and charging very premium rates and companies in remote/rural areas where talent is locally non existent and convincing people to move to you is nearly impossible. These companies now have access to a global pool of workers willing to work remotely. Better still, you pay for the skills and not their on site presence. They might prefer on site but it's simply not an option for many companies. Now that companies have learned they can work with remote people, many of them grudgingly do.
Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. I’d wager that a vast majority of programming being done is internal LOB CRUD apps. Sure, management will gush over how “innovative” those CRUD apps are, but most programming jobs is just finding out where data resides, where it’s going and what Bootstrap template to…
Most of the profit is in the areas of programming that are not LOB CRUD apps. For the simple reason that profit accrues to firms that are differentiated, and if you can lump a bunch of work into a category, it is by definition not differentiated. Liquidity and compensation are inversely proportional: you make the most money in markets where it's hard to find people who do what you do. Corollary: if you want to make m…