For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm • Hacker News Board

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#251

Post by ProZsolt » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:00 AM UTC

cwp wrote: post #178

Once all the furor has subsided and the pandemic ebbs, I think it's safe to say that many companies will got back to in-person collaboration and others will remain remote. It's clear that remote work is feasible, but not everyone enjoys it. Rather than argue the pros and cons, I'm more interested in seeing how distributed organizations will evolve. Slack and Zoom are getting the job done, but they are wearying. Organ…

Zapier wrote an entire book on the subject: https://cdn.zapier.com/storage/learn_ebooks/e4fbeb81f76c0c13...

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#252

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:01 AM UTC

littlecranky67 wrote: post #176

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

Your reasons are mostly individual and to some extent based on a lifestyle that you got used to because working remote wasn't an option. I often hear "i don't have a workspace/desk at my home" as a pro-commute argument. But the reason you don't have that desk is because when you moved into your flat, you didn't think of this. But if more and more employers allow to work remotely, people will make different choices on…

I don't want to pay more for larger apartment just so I can have dedicated office room and exact same argument goes both ways. I live 20minutes away from my office, that is by choice. I was even considering moving closer (so I could ditch car to a bike or maybe even walk) here I read that every one has 2-3 hour commute, that is on YOU and YOUR poor choices.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#253

Post by arcturus17 » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:01 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

> you're already overpaid

Assuming that:

a) A market such as the dev labor market is fairly efficient, and increasingly so

b) Agents on both the supply and demand sides transact freely and uncoerced

c) Individual feelings regarding the value of the work being carried out are meaningless

There is no thing such as "overpaid".

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#254

Post by golergka » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:01 AM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #160

mojuba wrote: post #56

Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…

Pro tip. They can only cut your pay if you let them. Or, rather, if we collectively let them. Make it clear that you won’t accept a pay cut for the same work output. And keep negotiating your full rate for any new position you take, and this won’t affect you at all. Personally, I always bill out at my Bay Area rate regardless of where I’m physically located (and I’ve been located in some pretty strange places). It ha…

> Pro tip. They can only cut your pay if you let them. Or, rather, if we collectively let them.

There's no "we" here. I live in Moscow, Russia, and I just got a remote job from an American company that pays 4 times more than my last one did, but still less than FAANG level. There are a LOT of developers all around the world that would be glad to "let them" pay less that what they used to when they were hiring only locally. Because for us it would still be a lot.

I don't think that American developers understand it yet, but remote work, in terms of it's influence of supply and demand of labour is not a good thing for you guys.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#255

Post by nly » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:01 AM UTC

Cookingboy wrote: post #62

sillysaurusx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mistaken. Companies need good employees, and particularly skilled developers. If you're a skilled developer, I urge you to exercise your negotiation power. You have much more than you think. The problem is, most people aren't willing to walk from job offers. Walk. There are more.

> and particularly skilled developers. skilled developers are much more common than people think. We get the impression of rarity precisely because we limit the search pool to local areas where very often many top companies are competing for the same talent pool. But at the end of the day there are a ton of super smart developers in EU, China, India, Japan, South America or even lower to mid COL areas in the U.S. who…

Skilled developers are numerous, but there's an ocean of mediocrity making it harder for companies to find the ones they will be willing to accept. On top of that, when they do find them, these candidates have typically already realized their negotiating power.

Recent numbers at my place of work (looking for a couple of senior hires):

3 months, 200 applicants, 35 full-day technical interviews, 2 offers. 1 accepted. The guy who rejected had a competing offer.

I'm poking around currently, and there's definitely an appetite for companies to get strong candidates in for interview. However, I keep these numbers in mind. The odds are against us.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#256

Post by jimsimmons » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:02 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

Eat your veggies, kids are dying in Africa

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#257

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:04 AM UTC

ijidak wrote: post #223

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

>Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food Haha. Not sure which country you're from, but this definitely sounds like a first world problem. Your statement tells me that you could afford to only eat food others prepared for you in the past. (Not sure if that was a free office cafeteria) For many that is expensive and could even be an unhealthy way of life. I've never really…

Food at work caffeteria costs 6€/meal. That's 120€/month. The food is "home style", so just normal food with salads, bread, and desert. Any food I make at home is going to cost around same. I mean you can go down obviously (just buy bag of rice and can of beans), but I don't get why this would be valid argument when we are talking about tech sallaries.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#258

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:05 AM UTC

formerly_proven wrote: post #195

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

Frankly, this sounds like you are an actual manchild. > I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office Just because you don't have any self discipline or work ethics doesn't mean everyone else has the same problem. Just because you have no control in your life and need the structure of an office work day to get stuff done both at work and privately doesn't mean…

Calling names makes you the mature one for sure

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#259

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:06 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #172

midrus wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food LOL

That does indeed sound like a trivial problem to solve. Pick a local restaurant and treat it as your new cafeteria. Come lunch time, go there. Ideally, your employer would compensate you for the office benefit you're missing (at least when talking about pandemic-induced forced WFH), but WFH is likely already saving you more money, so you can probably afford it anyway.

Any local delivery food costs 2-5 times as much as the office caffeteria and I can only get fast food delivered. Jumping into a car and driving to actual restaurant would take way more time and cost 3-4 times more.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#260

Post by aussieguy1234 » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:07 AM UTC

Since working remotely, I've been able to take on more challenging projects because the energy saved from the commutes and dealing with office distractions can be put to productive use elsewhere.

I moved to Tasmania to work remotely. Weekends are alot more interesting compared to Sydney and that helps with recharging. I've been able to afford a 3 bedroom house for the same as I was paying for a 2 bedroom apartment back in Sydney, with its own dedicated office.