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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#291

Post by Leherenn »

rytis wrote: post #270
yodsanklai wrote: post #261

I'm surprised so many people are so angry about the pay cut. Using my company's simulator, the pay cut seems to be at most 15% of the base salary and most likely less than that. In my case, considering cost of living, it would certainly be most advantageous to work remotely. I would save more money and live in a much nicer place.

It's not about the actual numbers. It's the WHY. How come the company was ok to pay X when the employee was coming to the office, but now that the same employee is WFH (and thus may be saving some dosh) they are only entitled to 0.85*X? Presumably the said employee was producing a value of Y (where Y may have been > X). Has Y changed? If yes, then it's fair to do the reduction, but I doubt that is the case. It might…

The value you produce is just the theoretical upper limit of how much you could get paid. If you could measure this value accurately, then it would make no sense to pay you more than that. It has little bearing on how much you actually get paid, that's based on the market rate.

They pay you less, because presumably by going remote you're changing the market in which you're based and your value in this new market is lower. They had to pay you, say, $200k before because otherwise they would never hire anyone if the other companies offered 200k. If you move remote, and your local companies/other remote options only pay 100k, they would be stupid to keep paying 200k. They can pay you 150k instead and still keep you. What are you going to do? Rage quit and join the 100k company in protest? Most people are not going to do that.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#292

Post by mjbeswick »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

I've been working from home since last February, and since then I have been more productive and worked more hours than when I was in the office.

Open plan office are an absolute productivity killer for me, as they are noisy and distracting and really the worst environment possible for development! Working from home there are no distractions, so I'm able to concentrate far longer. For me it's pointless to commute three hours a day just to sit in an office and not speak to anyone, when I could use that time for other things (plus saving £3,500 a year on travel).

As someone who trains at the gym two hours a day most days, working from home allows me to train more and eat better. It absolutely great being able to cook and eat proper food in my own kitchen!

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#293

Post by mjbeswick »

dagw wrote: post #152
ceilingcorner wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just rent an office space or coworking desk. Problem solved.

Using a significant chunk of my own salary each month to pay for something I used to get for free (and that my employer should provide) hardly seems like the ideal solution.

It's about the same cost as commuting, so no difference!?

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#294

Post by [deleted] »

whitepaint wrote: post #241
grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

> for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour > I have to say about computer programmers and their entitlement > you're already overpaid for shit that's not going to kill you Why overpaid? Programmers create huge amount of value and they are paid accordingly.

[deleted]

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#295

Post by sangnoir »

rytis wrote: post #270
yodsanklai wrote: post #261

I'm surprised so many people are so angry about the pay cut. Using my company's simulator, the pay cut seems to be at most 15% of the base salary and most likely less than that. In my case, considering cost of living, it would certainly be most advantageous to work remotely. I would save more money and live in a much nicer place.

It's not about the actual numbers. It's the WHY. How come the company was ok to pay X when the employee was coming to the office, but now that the same employee is WFH (and thus may be saving some dosh) they are only entitled to 0.85*X? Presumably the said employee was producing a value of Y (where Y may have been > X). Has Y changed? If yes, then it's fair to do the reduction, but I doubt that is the case. It might…

Employee salaries are mostly driven by market forces, and are barely affected by "value produced" alone. Companies will pay as low as employees will bear

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#296

Post by phreeza »

arcturus17 wrote: post #253
grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

> you're already overpaid Assuming that: a) A market such as the dev labor market is fairly efficient, and increasingly so b) Agents on both the supply and demand sides transact freely and uncoerced c) Individual feelings regarding the value of the work being carried out are meaningless There is no thing such as "overpaid".

I would say over and underpaid both do exist in scenarios where one party has undue/extortive power over the other. They don't exist in a well-functioning labor market.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#297

Post by nextlevelwizard »

globular-toast wrote: post #286
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why everyone commenting takes my comment as some kind of personal attack. I don't give a flying fuck what you guys do. I, personally, can't wait to get back to office.

Because your description of "the office" includes me. Specifically, that "external pressure" you are talking about. You seem to require the office to be filled with drones who are monitoring you to make sure you are working. If you were just talking about working in a location that isn't your own home, then fair enough. But what you're actually talking about is going back to that broken culture we had before where ev…

>You seem to require the office to be filled with drones...

Stopped reading here. There's no point since you are arguing imaginary things.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#298

Post by caskstrength »

digbert wrote: post #281
jimsimmons wrote: post #273

What bothers me more is that these tech companies aren’t even trying to have a conversation with their employees. If they did a survey and collected opinions from their employees the decision would be pretty trivial. But the managerial gang knows that and they want to side step it. The companies want to pretend they care about the employees. They claim to be giving them perks. In reality, these perks are just gamific…

> If they did a survey and collected opinions from their employees the decision would be pretty trivial. I'm not so sure about that. My company recently announced that our offices wouldn't be reopening until at least November, and there was a lot of quite angry pushback from people who are desperate to get back.

The survey should include "team decides how to work" option, which would probably get majority of votes.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#299

Post by _wolfie_ »

ca01an wrote: post #285
higeorge13 wrote: post #112

Most HN posts always compare with FAANG jobs and salaries, while there is a whole different world out there. For instance, in Europe and especially low-paid countries in the south or eastern Europe, i foresee zero chance that top talent will stay in their countries to be given low salaries for jobs with local/low impact. These people are already working or looking to work remotely to companies in richer countries (e.…

I'm curious, what sort of salary range would there be for engineers in your country?

For Czech republic, based on seniority and skill level I would say between ~$2.5k and ~$7k salary per month before tax. But you lose like a half to the various taxes.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#300

Post by jimsimmons »

sangnoir wrote: post #295
rytis wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about the actual numbers. It's the WHY. How come the company was ok to pay X when the employee was coming to the office, but now that the same employee is WFH (and thus may be saving some dosh) they are only entitled to 0.85*X? Presumably the said employee was producing a value of Y (where Y may have been > X). Has Y changed? If yes, then it's fair to do the reduction, but I doubt that is the case. It might…

Employee salaries are mostly driven by market forces, and are barely affected by "value produced" alone. Companies will pay as low as employees will bear

And we can stop bearing
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