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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#151

Post by atregir »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

I have the opposite problem working from home: I take almost no breaks, sometimes it happened I even had lunch from my desk and worked longer hours than in the office. This sucked at first, until I realized I couldn't do this for long and started being more conscious about my working hours. In the office I feel I take so many breaks, short coffee chats, water cooler chats etc. I think what you say that "any breaks people take are way longer than in the office" is not extremely accurate.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#152

Post by dagw »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #145
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

Just rent an office space or coworking desk. Problem solved.

Using a significant chunk of my own salary each month to pay for something I used to get for free (and that my employer should provide) hardly seems like the ideal solution.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#153

Post by midrus »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

>Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food

LOL

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#154

Post by makeitdouble »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

I am all in for WFH, but deeply agree with your points.

Having a dedicated working space is not trivial; and it's not just isolating the space, there is all the "office management" part, having well fitted furnitures, lighting, drinks, noise management etc. Basically what was someone else's job is now each employee's responsibility. I'm fine with it, but it should be noted.

Physical fitness was already in that realm I think, though we were forced to have at least some exercise to move to the office. My hardest impact on that respect is that my calm neighborhood is less fancy than where the downtown office was, and it's less fun to just go walk for 20 ~ 30 mins and stop by nice coffee shops or museums. I could move to a more crowded place, but it's just a different tradeoff. Buying a better bike was the best investment on that front.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#155

Post by nostrademons »

Teever wrote: post #96
Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. As a person who lives in a geologically stable region I have to chuckle because it is entirely possible that this comment will age as terribly as that 'which country is best equipped to deal with a pandemic (2019) post that we saw recently. I don't deny the part of your comment about in person interactions being the foundat…

The thing about natural cataclysms is that the most deadly ones are the ones you don't expect, because you can prepare for the ones you do expect.

CA has been preparing for a large earthquake since the 1989 Loma Prieta and 1994 Northridge quakes. Building codes here are pretty strict; anything built or retrofitted since about 1980 should do fine. Lots of money has been spent retrofitting older soft-story apartments, and infrastructure has been shored up since Loma Prieta. Cities are starting to discourage and then ban natural gas in new construction to reduce the risk of fire; when they can't, gas lines are being upgraded to make them more robust. Most families keep an earthquake kit of canned food, campstoves, and potable water. Google at least runs annual drills that simulate all of their Bay Area offices being taken offline (and their employees presumed dead) to ensure business continuity; it'd surprise me if other Silicon Valley companies don't.

This is when the two recent M6.8 earthquakes [1][2] killed about 60 people each, and a worst-case scenario [3] predicts about 800 dead. Significantly more people have died from COVID.

The natural disasters you really have to worry about are black swans that you'd never expect, like frost in Houston or heat waves in Seattle. If the Bay Area got a blizzard it'd be a disaster, but we've basically got earthquakes covered.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Loma_Prieta_earthquake

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Northridge_earthquake

[3] https://www.usgs.gov/media/videos/haywired-scenario-movie

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#157

Post by lnjarroyo »

Cookingboy wrote: post #62
sillysaurusx wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mistaken. Companies need good employees, and particularly skilled developers. If you're a skilled developer, I urge you to exercise your negotiation power. You have much more than you think. The problem is, most people aren't willing to walk from job offers. Walk. There are more.

> and particularly skilled developers. skilled developers are much more common than people think. We get the impression of rarity precisely because we limit the search pool to local areas where very often many top companies are competing for the same talent pool. But at the end of the day there are a ton of super smart developers in EU, China, India, Japan, South America or even lower to mid COL areas in the U.S. who…

Just as there are super smart, skilled developers in these areas, there are also lots and lots of software companies in EU, China, India, Japan and South America. These companies will need to up their game to keep these talented developers from fleeing to better paying, outsourced jobs.

This might not mean much for someone who made their career in SV, but certainly means a lot to an Indian, Russian or Brazilian developer.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#158

Post by Foobar8568 »

cornel_io wrote: post #127
mojuba wrote: post #56

Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…

I've seen few unnecessary engineering manager positions, typically if anything companies have too few managers for the number of engineers. I constantly see those positions filled with people who may be great engineers but are trash managers, though. Companies can still get by, but they often don't even realize how much better they'd be if they prioritized management skill instead of mere years of experience (I'm loo…

I have seen way too many useless managers,the ones going from meetings to meetings, distilling incorrect information, gatekeeping a lot of things, creating unnecessary mess due to their lack of knowledge that I need to clean afterward, obviously without I/or the team getting any merits.

Oddly enough, these managers don't know much technically and are blatantly toxic, as they drive people in mass, they just move up the ladder and promote their alike peers for another round of madness.

I would love to live in these unicorn companies where everyone is marvelous, but I have never seen one in 20 different clients in Europe, from the small startup to largest 10 companies in the world, including NGOs (among the worst place to work).

So one may have a great manager but you are 6months away from yet another reorganization that would kill any teams.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#159

Post by ozzythecat »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #119
Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> So many cool ideas and new projects were the results of a casual lunch discussion even just random hallway chats. You can't duplicate that with Slack messages or scheduled Zoom meetings. Of course you can. You just have to allow it. Here's where "human nature" bites most management in the ass. What casual lunch discussion, random hallway chats, water cooler talks and after-hours beer have all in common is, people i…

> What casual lunch discussion, random hallway chats, water cooler talks and after-hours beer have all in common is, people involved are slacking off.

> I find it ironic that companies want everyone to do spontaneous R&D work, but they rely on it happening spontaneously due to inefficiencies of office environment.

I don’t think those conversations and lunches are slacking off. Connecting with people goes a long way towards my own mental health, building relationships, learning about other projects and initiatives, and earning trust. If your employer defines that as slacking off, it’s maybe time for a new company.

My company has an expectation that I deliver X, help Y program move forward, mentor and teach, and generally disambiguate and solve hard problems.

Slacking off is if I repeatedly fail to perform those roles, and it’s only slacking off even then if it’s carelessness on my part.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#160

Post by jasonkester »

mojuba wrote: post #56

Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…

Pro tip. They can only cut your pay if you let them. Or, rather, if we collectively let them.

Make it clear that you won’t accept a pay cut for the same work output. And keep negotiating your full rate for any new position you take, and this won’t affect you at all.

Personally, I always bill out at my Bay Area rate regardless of where I’m physically located (and I’ve been located in some pretty strange places). It has never been an issue.

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