For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm • Hacker News Board

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#271

Post by globular-toast » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

For me it always was the norm, and it's been great to return to that. I learnt programming in my room on my own. I went to uni, and that was great, but all the cementing of that knowledge was done alone. No distractions. No commute. No special clothes.

When I started working I remember being told I was now entering the "real world". Well, after several years of being in the "real world" I now know that it's crap. Returning to work from home reminded me what it's like to actually be productive.

Concentration is so important. Not even just for programming. I was speaking to a guy who runs a mobile clutch repair business. He does one clutch a day on people's driveways. He works about 5-6 hours a day, including travel time (so really only 3-4 hours on the job). If you go to a regular garage they'll tell you how big of a job a clutch is and they'll sometimes take multiple days to complete the work. It's because they aren't concentrating. They are chatting with each other, being pulled this way and that into helping with other tasks etc. This is exactly what being in the office was like. For years I was never able to get into the zone.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#272

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #163

dagw wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using a significant chunk of my own salary each month to pay for something I used to get for free (and that my employer should provide) hardly seems like the ideal solution.

I would rather pay a few hundred dollars for a private space and have control over my time/work hours, than be forced to physically commute to an office. Time > money. In my experience, most decent employers have a stipend for co-working anyway.

But I already have control over my work hours. I don't have to work 9-5 as long as I work 37.5 hours a week. My commute is at worst 25 minutes with car (at best 15 minutes if no traffic).

I can easily get up at 6 go workout for 1-1.5h then drive to work when the morning rush is gone.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#273

Post by jimsimmons » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

What bothers me more is that these tech companies aren’t even trying to have a conversation with their employees. If they did a survey and collected opinions from their employees the decision would be pretty trivial. But the managerial gang knows that and they want to side step it.

The companies want to pretend they care about the employees. They claim to be giving them perks. In reality, these perks are just gamification to make the employee spend more time in the office.

The managerial gang gamified CS careers with silly interviews and performance reviews. They gamified apps and information dispersal. Entire democracies were at stake and nothing changed.

WFH won’t ever happen. These managers have to maintain appearances, name drop names and pretend to be “in the know”. Every engineer knows that 90% of these people are like language models regurgitating what they’ve heard. They can’t do that effectively via video.

To me this is the most blatant admission of their inability to measure developer productivity.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#274

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

goldenkey wrote: post #215

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

So basically, you lack the self-discipline to be satisfied with your choices, and prefer to be enlisted in some type of nanny service? Cool, I'll opt out and instead focus on bettering my defecits so I don't need to outsource my mental fortitude.

Lol, seeth more

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#275

Post by enriquto » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

idnefju wrote: post #184

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

This whole post sounds like you don’t have control of your life. Why do you need to find an excuse to do things you want to do? Commit to a workout routine, commit to getting food or learning to cook to save money, commit to some mindful exercises to have more focus

The whole argument against people who prefer not to WFH seems to be that they are "deeply flawed individuals that do not have control over their own life". This is ridiculous, working in situ is a legitimate preference of many people, for whatever reasons, and we need not be judged about it.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#276

Post by thiht » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:17 AM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #261

I'm surprised so many people are so angry about the pay cut. Using my company's simulator, the pay cut seems to be at most 15% of the base salary and most likely less than that. In my case, considering cost of living, it would certainly be most advantageous to work remotely. I would save more money and live in a much nicer place.

In my company working from home results in a small pay raise (2€ per day worked from home, it’s a small contribution to the home fees).

A pay cut is absolutely ridiculous, you can’t defend that. And 15%? That’s fucking outrageous. You need unions.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#277

Post by throwaway8689 » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:17 AM UTC

I spend quite a lot of time discussing requirements and changes with end users. Because we work across multiple sites it used to take time to organise a meeting needed people could attend. Now we can have shorter, more focussed and timely meetings over video. People who don't need or want to be at a site can join from home.

The org already had video conferencing between larger meeting rooms but few people could use it efficiently and there were no support staff on hand.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#278

Post by nextlevelwizard » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:19 AM UTC

idnefju wrote: post #184

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

This whole post sounds like you don’t have control of your life. Why do you need to find an excuse to do things you want to do? Commit to a workout routine, commit to getting food or learning to cook to save money, commit to some mindful exercises to have more focus

>Commit to a workout routine, commit to getting food or learning to cook to save money, commit to some mindful exercises to have more focus

You can do that. I can just go back to office.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#279

Post by genezeta » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:19 AM UTC

higeorge13 wrote: post #243

genezeta wrote: post #225

I'm doing interviews now and, naturally, the question comes up. Am I looking for a remote position? Would I mind that the position is only partially so? Or that it is fully on-site? Obviously it's just anecdotal data , and I'm in Europe. So take this with a grain of salt, but I'd say: * There has undoubtedly been a big rise in remote positions, but not a huge one. Many of these seem to come from companies willing to…

I am from Europe as well, and did similar searching a few months back. These are not remote jobs. If you are looking for such, you should change your job filter or check websites offering strictly such jobs. Then there is another obstacle: timezone. There are a few remote-only jobs which require you to be on the same country or a couple timezones away (e.g. US-only). Then you need to adapt your scope to your preferre…

> These are not remote jobs. If you are looking for such, you should change your job filter or check websites offering strictly such jobs.

The point was how jobs in general are becoming or not becoming remote. If I limit my search to remote jobs, then sure, all I will see is remote jobs everywhere.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#280

Post by apetrov » Thu, Aug 12, 2021, 9:19 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

I won't debate the fairness/difficulty point but instead focus on the premise that you don't break your bodies while working as a programmer. That's exactly what you're doing while sitting. i.e. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/adult-health/ex...

Yes, there are workarounds on how to mitigate some effects but in general, the human body was designed (by environment for millions of years) to move all day long, often with a weight.