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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#201

Post by dv_dt »

dagw wrote: post #152
ceilingcorner wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just rent an office space or coworking desk. Problem solved.

Using a significant chunk of my own salary each month to pay for something I used to get for free (and that my employer should provide) hardly seems like the ideal solution.

This is perhaps why many people look at the drive to lower the salary of people working from home with some suspicion. Wfh saves employers a lot of money in terms of providing office space. And in some concrete ways increases expenses of employees at home. (If gives back some commute costs as well as other freedoms too though). I think both employers and employees will take some time to sift though how the benefits/drawbacks rebalance from the changes that come from wfh.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#202

Post by globular-toast »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

Maybe you do benefit from going to the office then. But here's the thing, I don't mind if you go to the office. You can even take your free lunch, I don't mind. Just don't expect me to come in every day to make you feel bad about how long your breaks are.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#203

Post by Cookingboy »

velcii wrote: post #84
Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

>then companies will lower comp for those jobs and start giving them less sexy/boring/keep the lights on type of work I was under the impression that comps have the practice of giving work to people that might produce good results with that kind of work, and trust me, people who might produce good results will want the freedom WFH makes possible. But on the other hand, people who have to depend on politics and ass ki…

>I was under the impression that comps have the practice of giving work to people that might produce good results with that kind of work, and trust me, people who might produce good results will want the freedom WFH makes possible.

Just because companies were only giving WFH opportunity to high performers doesn't mean all high performers prefer WFH opportunities.

Have you considered the possibility that some people actually are more productive when they have some physical interaction with their coworkers once in a while? In fact I'd argue that's most people.

Even for the best employee who do the most amazing kind of work, being in person and take advantage of politics and "ass kissing" would only help, not hurt. For two employees who accomplish the exact same amount of work, the one who has better person skills and being able to take advantage of that will go further in career.

>But on the other hand, people who have to depend on politics and ass kissing to keep their job and get promoted

It seems like you are under this very strong impression of people who derive value for in-person work only do so because they are sub-par employees.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#204

Post by OhNoMyqueen »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #119
Cookingboy wrote: post #57

As preferable as WFH is for many and as productive as many people can be while working remote, at the end of the day, you can't change human nature. There is a reason why companies like Google are doubling down in Silicon Valley real estate. They believe that the best, most innovative type of work are the results of organic discussions and unscheduled, unplanned, casual human interactions. So many cool ideas and new…

> So many cool ideas and new projects were the results of a casual lunch discussion even just random hallway chats. You can't duplicate that with Slack messages or scheduled Zoom meetings. Of course you can. You just have to allow it. Here's where "human nature" bites most management in the ass. What casual lunch discussion, random hallway chats, water cooler talks and after-hours beer have all in common is, people i…

I believe that face-to-face physical interaction is a way more determinant criteria than slacking off for making those moments productive.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#205

Post by cutthegrass2 »

dagw wrote: post #152
ceilingcorner wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just rent an office space or coworking desk. Problem solved.

Using a significant chunk of my own salary each month to pay for something I used to get for free (and that my employer should provide) hardly seems like the ideal solution.

depending upon where you are located and your method of commute, it's likely you're spending more per month commuting than you would on a local co-working space.

This is the case for a large proportion of people in the South East of the UK.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#206

Post by jusssi »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #172
midrus wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food LOL

That does indeed sound like a trivial problem to solve. Pick a local restaurant and treat it as your new cafeteria. Come lunch time, go there. Ideally, your employer would compensate you for the office benefit you're missing (at least when talking about pandemic-induced forced WFH), but WFH is likely already saving you more money, so you can probably afford it anyway.

The available selection could be a problem. Near my home, there's a sushi place, two pizzerias, a Subway, a chinese and some cafes that don't really serve anything I'd call lunch. After 1½ years I'm sick of all of them. I've been ordering from further away, but that costs 50-100% more, and many types of food lose quality in transit.

Compared to the 30+ places reachable by foot within 45min lunch break at the office (and having real people to talk with while eating), WHF has really destroyed my lunch breaks.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#207

Post by DrBazza »

In London, at least, there's probably two categories of programmers, those with families and modest-to-large houses in the suburbs or further out in the home counties, with long commutes, and those that are without families, living in flats (apartments) in London. The former want to stay remote, the latter, want to go into the office.

I'm sure it's an xkcd/meme Venn diagram, but in broad strokes, that's my impression of how the cards have fallen in the UK from speaking to friends and colleagues.

There's further overlap with age, too. As home ownership increases with age. So it's the 20-30s want to be back in the office, and the 30+ don't. Again, broad strokes, but that's what I understand from friends, family, even sites like this.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#208

Post by KronisLV »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

> I can't wait to get back to the office.

That is a valid point, since different people work better in different settings. I am personally in the opposite group.

> I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that)

Overall, i get way more done at home, because of my 4 monitor setup, privacy, peace and the ability to take walks to clear my head and breathe some fresh air while i consider how to solve technical problems. I cannot do that at an office setting and my mental health has improved bunches. Also, no commute has done wonders for my sleep schedule and productivity. I no longer waste 10% of my life in public transportation.

> It also helps with my physical fitness. Now it is super hard to go to the gym in the morning just to come back home. When I commuted to work the gym was just on the way and it was easy to get out of the bed and go work out.

My physical fitness has gotten way better since i started working remotely - i've lost about 12 kg in 2 months, since now i exercise for 1-2 hours every single day in the countryside. No anxiety about how i look while working out. No shame about not living up to anyone's expectations. Just me, nature and listening to a podcast while i jog for 5 km and do sit ups, push ups, pull ups and whatever else i want.

> Food is also big draw. Now I have to worry about what I eat every day and make my food. That's extra stress and cognitive pressure that is completely avoided when I get to just eat lunch from office's cafeteria.

I think that people should always make their own food, since it's both economically more responsible and on average also more healthy. I now enjoy a primarily veggie based diet and communities like /r/MealPrep have been fun to explore! Plus, my cooking skills have gotten way better.

> And of course other social aspects i.e. since I am already outside it is easier to do other stuff, but when I'm still in my underpants at home after work it is way harder to dress up and go do stuff.

I get to chat more with my friends remotely on my down time. I no longer worry about how i look. I no longer have to worry about someone dropping by and just making me lose the mental model of the code that i have in my head. Meetings are properly scheduled ahead of time. Noone makes assumptions about me based on my gender, age, looks or anything else.

Frankly, it's great. It won't be that way for extroverted people, or those that prefer in person collaboration for any reason. It also won't be that way for people who live in the city, at least sometimes. But, living in the countryside, it's absolutely great! Also, no overpriced real estate or rent to take care of.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#209

Post by mytailorisrich »

midrus wrote: post #166
jasonkester wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro tip. They can only cut your pay if you let them. Or, rather, if we collectively let them. Make it clear that you won’t accept a pay cut for the same work output. And keep negotiating your full rate for any new position you take, and this won’t affect you at all. Personally, I always bill out at my Bay Area rate regardless of where I’m physically located (and I’ve been located in some pretty strange places). It ha…

Same salary despite where you are living is really unfair. I live in Italy and with a silicon valley salary here I'd be millionaire. It just won't work, companies would find equally qualified people for less money and long term we would all have to move to cheaper places.

It's not unfair at all. If you produce the same as someone in SV then you are worth the SV salary since the company is willing to pay it to someone in SV in the first place!

No, the point is that, obviously, company do try not to pay more than they have to. They know that if you live in a cheap location where there may not be too many opportunities you will likely accept a lower salary so that's exactly what they do. It's a cost cutting exercise.

Obviously the counter point is that if everyone WFH then why would they bother paying SV salaries in SV or anywhere else? Just drop salaries across the board and cut SV people.

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