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For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

economist.com

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Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#161

Post by midrus »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #145
nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

Just rent an office space or coworking desk. Problem solved.

Nah, better to force everyone to go back to the office so I get free food and I can look busy all day.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#162

Post by nick0garvey »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #133

I can't wait to get back to the office. I don't have dedicated remote work space and that really eats into my productivity. Also being home and having no external pressure to keep working I can already see any breaks people tend to take are way longer than what they would take at the office. (Now someone is going to tell me that this just shows that people need more breaks, but I don't believe that) It also helps wit…

I also prefer working in the office but this feels a bit over the top.

Is it really way harder to get dressed at the end of the day instead of the start? Is it that much cognitive pressure to feed yourself? Working in the office has its benefits, but working from home is not a crushing experience for a programmer compared to most workers.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#163

Post by ceilingcorner »

dagw wrote: post #152
ceilingcorner wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just rent an office space or coworking desk. Problem solved.

Using a significant chunk of my own salary each month to pay for something I used to get for free (and that my employer should provide) hardly seems like the ideal solution.

I would rather pay a few hundred dollars for a private space and have control over my time/work hours, than be forced to physically commute to an office. Time > money.

In my experience, most decent employers have a stipend for co-working anyway.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#164

Post by vladvasiliu »

jbigelow76 wrote: post #48
vladvasiliu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't share your optimism. From what I see in France, there's a ton of competition in "consulting". Not freelance, mind, but body shops renting out developers. The end clients have a tendency to think of those devs as completely interchangeable (that's the main reason they give when asked why they don't hire directly). I have a hard time seeing how telling them to pound sand can have a serious effect, especially si…

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say but we are coming from different perspectives of FTE vs "staff aug". My company uses contractors as an FTE pipeline or funnel and by nature they have far less leverage (if they are good they will eventually be offered FTE spots and get more of the "leverage" I mentioned). There's also probably some nuance between the US job market and French job market of which I hav…

> My overall point is, that in the US at least, for middle of the bell curve type talent to solve middle of the bell curve type problems, there is far less talent than there is problems.

I think that's actually the case in France, too. But there's also a fairly widespread mentality among employees to try not to rock the boat. Many people are afraid of being laid off and having to go through the recruitment grinder, which for most consulting firms isn't pretty.

However, regarding the "staff aug", I've been working for a client whose IT department has more contractors than FTE, and a bunch of the contractors have been there for a very long time (>5 years). I think there are only two FTEs who have been there longer than any current outsider.

This sounds extreme, but isn't isolated. I used to work for a "consulting shop" and many people there had been with the same client for very long periods.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#165

Post by velcii »

Cookingboy wrote: post #132
velcii wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The information bandwidth of in-person communication is absolutely unparalleled Not really, if you are not interested in communicating emotions or not interested in playing politics as part of the said communication.. In fact, in technical discussion, not conveying too much emotion is a great advantage..

>In fact, in technical discussion, not conveying too much emotion is a great advantage.. But I'd just like to remind you that even the most hardcore engineering company cannot possibly having only technical discussions. This really reminds me that how often HN miss the forest for the tree.

>But I'd just like to remind you that even the most hardcore engineering company cannot possibly having only technical discussions.

Your point is not very clear, sorry.

It seems that you have an emotional reaction to this topic, which seems to muddle your argument. May be take sometime to reflect and get back with more clarity?

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#166

Post by midrus »

jasonkester wrote: post #160
mojuba wrote: post #56

Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…

Pro tip. They can only cut your pay if you let them. Or, rather, if we collectively let them. Make it clear that you won’t accept a pay cut for the same work output. And keep negotiating your full rate for any new position you take, and this won’t affect you at all. Personally, I always bill out at my Bay Area rate regardless of where I’m physically located (and I’ve been located in some pretty strange places). It ha…

Same salary despite where you are living is really unfair. I live in Italy and with a silicon valley salary here I'd be millionaire. It just won't work, companies would find equally qualified people for less money and long term we would all have to move to cheaper places.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#167

Post by BrandonM »

grawprog wrote: post #72

I dunno, for a group of people who seem to believe you're worth a ridiculous amount of money per hour, think of what your time is worth. You folks that make a living programming off exceedingly decent wages. You don't break your bodies every day, you're not forced to spend all day moving wood and metal, filling bags full of garbage, hauling shit that weighs 50+ lbs all day every day. You just gotta sit and think and…

I’ve done both, too. Both the treatment and the pay is better in office jobs. When I worked labor, though, I could think about whatever I wanted to during the day. White collar employers own our thoughts for 8 hours a day and often beyond. The wages are exceedingly decent, but that doesn’t preclude us from demanding more from our employers, who are making even more than that off our thoughts and creative output.

I’m not making any particular argument here, just adding color to your fair points. My dad worked labor his whole working life until it broke his body at about 50 (now on disability). Now I’m working in part to send him money every month, but also building toward my own early semi-retirement. I’m happy I got into programming, but I’ll be happier to have my thoughts back.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#168

Post by vladvasiliu »

outsomnia wrote: post #75
vladvasiliu wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't share your optimism. From what I see in France, there's a ton of competition in "consulting". Not freelance, mind, but body shops renting out developers. The end clients have a tendency to think of those devs as completely interchangeable (that's the main reason they give when asked why they don't hire directly). I have a hard time seeing how telling them to pound sand can have a serious effect, especially si…

Your situation and the OP's are different... it sounds kind of awful what you describe, a bit like how renting a house and giving a major slice of your income to the landlord tends to make it you're never going to be able to buy a house. It sounds like you need a different kind of job to have a way forward.

That's what I think, too. The main issue to me is that every salary negotiation becomes tri-party, and every party has different interests.

What's more surprising to me, though, is that there actually are many companies that will go this route. They're paying basically twice the salary of any given person. I know many people try to avoid increasing payroll, which is often the reason given, but you'd think after a few years, when you know the employee does the job well enough, you might want to save some change.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#169

Post by woodpanel »

mbag wrote: post #69
mojuba wrote: post #56

Didn't read the article - no access, just some thoughts: the downward pressure on wages will probably become a norm for WFH. Google has already set a precedent. However, unless it takes another unexpected turn, WFH is win-win-win: companies can save on office space and a bit on reduced salaries too; employees will have a healthier life and the freedom to live in cheaper locations; and finally WFH is good for the envi…

Another win is for the local economy, where remote workers will spend their money.

Unless "Hygiene"-Restrictions force you to spend all on "un-local" orgs:

- Clicking on an ad likely sends ad-spending to Google/Amazon/FB/Twitter

- Using the web will increase cloud-costs, money goes to AWS

- buying stuff online likely hapens on Amazon, maybe ebay, maybe etsy

- buying stuff online likely makes your local merchants pay transaction fees to Amazon, PayPal, Visa or Mastercard

In that case "Local economy" means more money goes to tech-hubs. Your rural plumber, baker, brewer, dentist etc. will be skimmed more not less.

Re: For programmers, remote working is becoming the norm

#170

Post by LAC-Tech »

DoingIsLearning wrote: post #111
LAC-Tech wrote: post #24

I'd hate to go back to working in an office. I live in the countryside now and it's great. However I realise it may not always be so easy. So: - I'm self employed. Foreign companies aren't going to set up a branch office just to employ me. Purchasing my services however is easy. - I've niched down to a business vertical, and I'm starting to niche down more technically as well. No more "I'm a full stack developer with…

> write software for the agricultural sector. Could you go into more detail? Enterprise software, embedded software, industrial PLC's? Agro is one industry that I would expect quite difficult to work remotely since there is usually some form of physical system that you deploy on a farm. I would be really curious to know more about your gig?

Web Apps mostly.

There's a lot of IOT systems that capture data from farms & food. Fruit ripeness, water levels, livestock location, livestock weights. So plenty of frontend work required.

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