Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents • Hacker News Board

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#121

Post by smashing » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 1:18 AM UTC

Taft wrote: post #21

dpcan wrote: post #7

Let's just stop the import of all computers and phones over Patent rulings. HTC and Apple should stick to their guns and deny imports of their products. Once nobody can buy computers or phones in the U.S. anymore THEN, just MAYBE, Congress will decide to fix this Patent mess.

Considering the increasingly vocal outcry of rampant patent abuse, it's also possible that tech giants begin publicly stating their position towards US patent law: it needn't exist (or one of the many alternatives that have been proposed). If the market can metabolize that, patent law reform isn't far away.

What Congress considers patent reform and what you, and many on this site, consider patent reform hold to two distinct philosophies.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#122

Post by wtallis » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 2:06 AM UTC

wheels wrote: post #67

erydo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already purchased those patents, though. It's kind of a sunk cost. They wouldn't be losing $4.5 billion cash if patents became worthless, they'd be losing ammunition for a type of fight that they wouldn't have to deal with anymore. That's like saying, "We can't stop fighting this war, then all our guns would be worthless."

Bad analogy. The war isn't over patents, it's general competition. It's more like the UN pushing you to sign a treaty pledging not to use nukes just after you spent a pile acquiring them. Now if patents were only used defensively (which they're obviously not in this case, since Apple went on the attack) the analogy would then be banning ballistic missiles right after acquiring a ballistic missile defense system, whic…

The war is over patents, far above and beyond general competition. If that weren't the case, then we wouldn't have so many patent trolls, who have decided that it's more profitable to sue over patents than to actually make products and compete in a consumer marketplace. The Android smartphone vendors aren't just trying to shut out any potentially superior competitors from the market, they're spending billions on patents so that they can have a chance at a fraction of Apple's monstrous profits.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#123

Post by deepGem » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 2:50 AM UTC

Well Appe will just use Nvidia chips in the new set of mac airs. I think the author overstates the damage by saying the ruling will impact the entire mac line up.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#124

Post by aboodman » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:42 AM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #53

Given this is a HW and SW patent, and my superficial reading leads me to believe that this may infringe on HW -- this isn't your typical SW patent issue. It's HW too. Are people ready to say that HW patents, such as those held by Intel and ARM, should also go bye-bye?

It annoys me that the tech community always focuses on software patents, as if hardware ones are automatically more legitimate.

The original purpose of the patent system was to improve consumers lives by:

a) Incentivizing innovations that would not otherwise be profitable.

b) Incentivizing disclosure of invention details that would otherwise be kept secret.

These are a pretty rare combination of circumstances for most inventions, whether software or hardware. a) is demonstrably rare since patents are constantly infringed, yet Apple (for example) still somehow manages to get by. b) does not apply to any technology that is distributed, since anyone can take it apart and see how it works.

On the other side, patents of any type actively harm consumers:

a) Products from large companies are driven up in cost due to litigation.

b) Potential innovation from small companies is stifled by fear of litigation.

I'm sure there's some use for a patent system, but it is very small. The US would be a far better place with no patent system than with the one we have now.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#125

Post by aboodman » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 3:53 AM UTC

Steko wrote: post #113

kelnos wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So... what's your point, really? What's wrong with taking a successful product, and making a similar product to compete with it? Android may have quickly morphed into something more iPhone-like in the wake of the initial iPhone launch, but why is that seen as "cheating"? Why is "clone" a bad word? I think it's a great word. You don't like Apple's walled-garden approach? Fine, now you have competition, alternatives, a…

"What's wrong with taking a successful product, and making a similar product to compete with it?" Zero. I'm very thankful that Android exists and webOS and WP7, competition is good. "But in this case, it just amounts to an attempt at stifling competition." I think it's a bit myopic to look at only this. You have to ask yourself the very important question of whether the iphone would even exist to be copied if there w…

We don't have to ask ourselves. Apple products are cloned everyday, particularly in Asia. Yet Apple is still killing it, even in China. How can this be!?

It turns out it is hard to successfully clone Apple products. And even with a perfect clone, you still have to compete with their incredible brand and consumer loyalty.

Apple does not need our protection. Small businesses do. Unfortunately they are the real victim of the patent system.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#126

Post by kenjackson » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 4:46 AM UTC

aboodman wrote: post #124

kenjackson wrote: post #53

Given this is a HW and SW patent, and my superficial reading leads me to believe that this may infringe on HW -- this isn't your typical SW patent issue. It's HW too. Are people ready to say that HW patents, such as those held by Intel and ARM, should also go bye-bye?

It annoys me that the tech community always focuses on software patents, as if hardware ones are automatically more legitimate. The original purpose of the patent system was to improve consumers lives by: a) Incentivizing innovations that would not otherwise be profitable. b) Incentivizing disclosure of invention details that would otherwise be kept secret. These are a pretty rare combination of circumstances for mos…

I think I'd keep drug patents. Not sure if much else. Drugs take a long time and a lot of money to create. But copying a drug is cheap is quick. But I'm not sure if anything else meets the bar.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#127

Post by billmcneale » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 5:47 AM UTC

Mutually Assured Destruction.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#128

Post by tsotha » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 6:09 AM UTC

VMG wrote: post #103

burgerbrain wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse? That is exactly what we have right now!

They are still suing each other. There could be a system where there is a cartel that only sues the small ones.

That's essentially the situation in hardware. All the big players have portfolios of patents which they swap in cross-licensing deals. As a newcomer you have no chance of breaking into the business since you don't have a portfolio of your own - you'd get sued out of business.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#129

Post by tsotha » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 6:15 AM UTC

cube13 wrote: post #87

dantheman wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution is that intellectual property and government granted monopolies are bad and should not be the law. They exist on shaky ground in that we assume that they produce more good than harm -- not a well grounded assumption imho. A case can be made that in most cases they are used by entrenched players against the small upstart. Fact: We can't assume we'll ever get an ideal system and must choose among flawed on…

>The solution is that intellectual property and government granted monopolies are bad and should not be the law. They exist on shaky ground in that we assume that they produce more good than harm -- not a well grounded assumption imho. Except those laws are what allows the entire software industry(both closed source and FOSS). Without the protections of IP, none of the copyleft licenses(either Apache or GPL) have any…

Yeah. There's a big difference between patents and copyrights. It's clear to me copyright is necessary for creative works - you couldn't make a living as a writer, musician, or software company if other people could just copy your finished work.

But patents are a different beast. From what I can tell they've become an impediment to progress instead of an aid.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#130

Post by kelnos » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 7:47 AM UTC

GHFigs wrote: post #114

kelnos wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, to a certain extent, though I'm not sure that I'd go so far as to call it juvenile. All news outlets have an agenda. Some try harder than others to keep that agenda out of their headlines. Others... don't. I'm not saying it's great, but it's to be expected, I think. While I wouldn't really call HTC an "underdog" in the normal sense of the term, painting them as such in a fight against Apple isn't totally off-…

Fair enough, but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that painting Steve Jobs as shooting lightning from his fingertips is a little on the juvenile side.

Ok, yeah, you've got me there ;)