The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed • Hacker News Board

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#161

Post by chailatte » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:20 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #20

"I spoke to Airbnb about EJ’s situation. They won’t reimburse her for damages, they say, and they do not insure against losses. They are helping police track down the person who did this, but their help ends there." ... Fuck. That. I don't care what the long-term implications are, I don't care about precedent, I don't care about policy, I don't care about cost . If my business does this to someone I make it right . E…

Personally I don't know why people get a hard-on about the story of Airbnb.

So they sold a fad product (cereal) at the right time to make a little bit of money. Just tells me they have no moral integrity (which explains the craigslist email spamming).

So they struggled to make rent in SF a while. Who told them to stay in an expensive city with no savings? That's bad financial planning, and they could've bootstrapped their startup in Austin.

Oh, and they made a startup that is illegal in many parts of US, and manage to dupe investors to give them hundreds of millions. Now they won't even help a girl whose life they help tear to shreds.

Sounds like upstanding fellows to me.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#162

Post by lr » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:23 PM UTC

jdminhbg wrote: post #125

lr wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airbnb is a brokerage for what is probably an illegal activity in a lot of places. The hotel industry is regulated for the same reason taxis are regulated. I love the concept of Airbnb, but I just can't see how it can really make it in the long run. In this case, and in all others, Airbnb can not be responsible for this kind of stuff. Also, I highly doubt a homeowners policy is going to cover it because the person wa…

"The hotel industry is regulated for the same reason taxis are regulated." Yes -- to drive up prices for the cartels who control entry into the market.

Yes, that is partially true. However, the major reason is safety and liability. I have spent quite a bit of time overseas, and jumping in some random car of questionable roadworthiness, with an equally questionable driver, is not really something that the average citizen should have to deal with on a regular basis. If you don't want hotels or taxis regulated, then perhaps the same could be said for all businesses, and housing (construction regulations), etc. If that is the case, then please be sure to be in Iran or Afghanistan the next time there is a major earthquake, and then tell me that regulation is about the "cartels who control entry into the market".

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#163

Post by lliiffee » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:26 PM UTC

Lewisham wrote: post #70

kwis wrote: post #49

The only blessing in this story is that the miscreants made their damage so plainly obvious that the problems were identified quite quickly. If they'd been a bit more subtle and a little patient, they could've engaged in massive identity theft and financial fraud without ever making it clear that AirBNB was the attack vector.

I was just thinking this. Presuming most AirBnB users rent regularly, you could quite easily swipe some jewelry (stuff at the bottom of the box) before anyone notices. Even if they do notice, they might go "I wonder where they went...?" and not even figure it was theft for a long time, if ever. Even if theft was presumed, not only would multiple users have been in and out by that time, but you'd have no way of provin…

In this case, wasn't a door broken in order to steal the jewelry? I'd assume most people take at least this level of precaution...

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#164

Post by btilly » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:28 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #78

prostoalex wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do we draw the line on decency? * Guest trashes the place, takes off with host's camera, iPod, laptop, jewelry - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? * Guest scratches a hardwood floor that's pretty expensive to fix - should AirBnb chip in for the cost? Or just buy a rug to cover it? What if it's some Mongolian oak that's custom-ordered at $5000 per sq.ft.? * Guest overflows the toilet, causing some floor damage…

I'm willing to go on record as saying the line is drawn at a sociopath willfully destroying someone's home and stealing their identity. It's pretty simple. If the user can't pre-screen and validate the guest's identity before renting, the onus is on Airbnb to ensure that they will not destroy your home . Besides, that's the only way this company can work at scale. Without trust in the system, who will use it?

No, that is not where you draw the line. That is a random point very much on the far side of where you want the line drawn.

The problem for any organization dealing with a large volume of possible cases is that you need to figure out where to draw the line. Preferably you want it in some place that is transparent and easily communicated to people. Otherwise you'll have an endless stream of cases close to the line with arbitrary outcomes that you can't explain.

Clearly, "So and so drilled through my walls to steal my stuff" should be on the far end of the line. Clearly, "So and so stole my pencil" should be on the near side of the line. But where do you draw it in the middle? With the claim of a broken TV? With a hole in the wall?

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#165

Post by dxbydt » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:29 PM UTC

losvedir wrote: post #155

dxbydt wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such an insurance would probably be pretty much impossible. If you get a legit HTBRAI ( house trashed by random asshole insurance ), you've automatically created a market where these HTBRAIs are priced, bought and sold. That means you are essentially gaming burglary. eg. if I buy 100 HTBRAIs in some dicey neighborhood and there's an incident, my contracts automatically go up in value. That's a huge incentive for crim…

It's an interesting point, but I don't see why it would be any different from any of the usual insurances (car, house, etc). A market based on life insurance policies which then incentivizes assassinations is a chilling thought, and strikes me as analogous to your scenario, but I don't think such a thing happens, right?

You might be surprised - see this : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-16/death-derivatives-e...

Other examples in the entertainment industry - say there exists insurance that your movie will earn a minimum revenue say 25 million usd. Your competitor simply buys those contracts and then trash talks your movie on the opening night ( by simply paying out bloggers and amateur journas some pittance sum of money ). Your movie tanks and so the contracts get exercised and your competitor makes a whole lot of money. So the next time around, you make a shitty movie to begin with. Then YOU buy the contracts, wait for your shitty movie to tank and cash in the contracts! This actually happens sometimes in Bollywood, though not in the exact fashion I described but in a more shady fashion.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#166

Post by wheels » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:40 PM UTC

chailatte wrote: post #123

wheels wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the problems of setting a precedent. I don't, actually. If the financial industry has taught us one thing, it's that you can insure anything . Let's assume that this is a very rare occurrence and that the total cost of making this right (say, tops $100k?) can be amortized over the profit being generated. I have a hard time understanding how it'd be rocket surgery to get something in place to handle these…

AirBnb is illegal in some of the states (and when states/hotel industry/cities get a wind of this story, it will probably be illegal in all the states), so I doubt any legitimate insurance companies will be handling this affair.

Aside from hyperbole about their legality now or in the future...

The way I suspect a deal would be structured is that the institutional investor would not be insuring the homes of Airbnb's customers, but insuring Airbnb against claims, with a process of validating those claims that involved sending out a third party adjuster.

I have full confidence in the insurance industry's ability to find a way to finagle a deal of this sort if there are enough zeros behind the dollar sign.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#167

Post by r00fus » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:44 PM UTC

jonknee wrote: post #91

It may just be that Breaking Bad is back in season, but it sounds like she unknowingly rented her house out to be a meth lab with cooks who probably used a bunch of meth in the process. > The death-like smell emanating from the bathroom was frightening (and still is) and the bathroom sink was caked with a crusty yellow substance. Various pairs of my gloves were strewn about

Wow, I only thought grow-ops and meth-labs were limited to actual rented houses, but I guess AirBnB and the like can take it to a whole new level.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#168

Post by friendstock » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:50 PM UTC

danilocampos wrote: post #136

codyrobbins wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The utter destruction of your home at the hands of a service that aims to help you monetize it is ipso facto a bug. Again, Airbnb didn’t destroy her home. Are you under the impression that someone from Airbnb itself was the one staying at her house? Intent: create value. Result: destruction of value. Bug! You’re basically defining what you want the responsibilities of Airbnb’s service to be and then faulting them acc…

Conveniently, you fail to address the point upon which this whole issue is predicated: " You can't talk to guests until the transaction is consummated. If that's so, it's on Airbnb to make sure that they're not sending a dangerous creep into your arms." No one thinks anyone from Airbnb blew up her home, dude. I'm not paid well enough to know if this meets the standard of tortious negligence. Yet it was negligence. Ha…

Actually, I've used AirBNB multiple times -- hosts CAN talk to the guests... but it's done through the AirBNB messaging system which actively removes real identifiers such as email addresses and phone numbers.

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#169

Post by revdinosaur » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:50 PM UTC

dxbydt wrote: post #142

wheels wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the problems of setting a precedent. I don't, actually. If the financial industry has taught us one thing, it's that you can insure anything . Let's assume that this is a very rare occurrence and that the total cost of making this right (say, tops $100k?) can be amortized over the profit being generated. I have a hard time understanding how it'd be rocket surgery to get something in place to handle these…

Such an insurance would probably be pretty much impossible. If you get a legit HTBRAI ( house trashed by random asshole insurance ), you've automatically created a market where these HTBRAIs are priced, bought and sold. That means you are essentially gaming burglary. eg. if I buy 100 HTBRAIs in some dicey neighborhood and there's an incident, my contracts automatically go up in value. That's a huge incentive for crim…

Don't such policies exist, though? Homeowners insurance and renters insurance typically have options to cover burglary. I would argue that the risk here is not people gaming things on the market side, but likely the traditional route of filing a false police report and making a fraudulent claim. Ideally there could be an extension on existing policies for people who are going to be offering their homes on services like airbnb.

Edit: I should have scanned the thread

Re: The Moment Of Truth For Airbnb As User’s Home Is Utterly Trashed

#170

Post by VladRussian » Wed, Jul 27, 2011, 11:53 PM UTC

jdminhbg wrote: post #125

lr wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airbnb is a brokerage for what is probably an illegal activity in a lot of places. The hotel industry is regulated for the same reason taxis are regulated. I love the concept of Airbnb, but I just can't see how it can really make it in the long run. In this case, and in all others, Airbnb can not be responsible for this kind of stuff. Also, I highly doubt a homeowners policy is going to cover it because the person wa…

"The hotel industry is regulated for the same reason taxis are regulated." Yes -- to drive up prices for the cartels who control entry into the market.

well, not that i support these taxes, yet just for illustration, SF hotel tax is also a source for grants to arts and culture programs which supposedly make the City more appealing (again i have no informed idea about the effectiveness and alternatives to such a tax program)