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The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

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Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#331

Post by Igelau »

wruza wrote: post #78
Igelau wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, a fire.

I’m afraid that you’re taking gp comment too lightly. The described frosts are really dangerous, it’s not your regular get-two-blankets cold. One may die or become disabled in minutes after a technical failure, which is similar to failure of an AC. A little camp fire and running in circles will barely help you, because animals become frozen literally mid-step in it, https://www.google.com/search?q=animals+frozen+soli…

Fire was listed as essential. All I was saying is that the internal combustion engine is the fire. Take what you will.

Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#332

Post by Izkata »

DHPersonal wrote: post #260
Aeolun wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> WB 35 °C (95 °F) – theoretically equivalent to a heat index of 70 °C (160 °F), though the heat index does not go that high I’m inclined to say that this is not very survivable, regardless of your precautions, if your air conditioning has died.

Even if my air conditioner was still functional, its output, the attic-based tubing used to push the air around, and the cheaply-built and leaky house to which it all attaches would never be able to keep out the heat.

Also the outside end of the heat pump wouldn't be able to cool off, so it wouldn't be making any cool air inside anyway. The tipping point there seems to be way lower than the numbers above, around 50 C / 120 F.

Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#333

Post by elbasti »

chinchilla2020 wrote: post #300
spywaregorilla wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it amusing that people are trying to downplay this because it is feasibly survivable in their opinions. If you're wondering "how I can survive these circumstances in my own home?" things are already really, really bad.

95 Fahrenheit is actually quite survivable. It is dangerous for old people, young people, and the very sick when combined with sun exposure and other factors. I spent much of my life living in that temperature range without A/C, working outside during the day in the sun. It's hot but not going to kill you. In fact, there are massive homeless encampments outside my window right now in extremely humid, hot, Texas weath…

35 wet-bulb temperature is not survivable. That is not a matter of opinion, it is a fact. Your body generates heat and at that temperature it is unable to shed it through any means and you will die in a couple of hours.

If a major city has such a heatwave, it will almost certainly be a mass casualty event, mitigated only by the duration of the wave and how many people have A/C (or how long the blackouts last).

A fan won't work because your sweat will not evaporate: in fact it just heats you up faster (like breathing on your skin in a sauna).

Such temperatures have only been measured a few times on earth, so no, you have not experienced them.

Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#334

Post by adrianN »

chrisco255 wrote: post #46
boplicity wrote: post #2

Kim Stanley Robinson's recent book The Ministry For the Future starts with a very disturbing scenario: A heatwave with a "web bulb" temperature of 35 Celsius. It turns out, in those temperatures, even young and healthy people can't survive. Combined with power outages, as happens in the book, everyone living under such a heat wave will likely die. It's looking increasingly likely that such heatwaves are possible in t…

"The study — published in the British journal The Lancet — analyzed data on more than 74 million deaths in 13 countries between 1985 and 2012. Of those, 5.4 million deaths were related to cold, while 311,000 were related to heat." Study: Cold kills 20 times more people than heat https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2015/05/20/cold-weath...

People are unlikely to start a mass migration from traditionally cold climates, but it is very likely that a mass migration will start when densely populated regions become lethal a couple of times a year.

Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#335

Post by alexose »

nefitty wrote: post #145
alexose wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medford resident here. We experienced a few days of 900+ last summer. It's very bad. Even in the 400's, it feels like chain smoking. At 900 the air is thick enough to block out most of sun. I have no idea what this has done to my health, but I guarantee it's not good.

Wow. It hit 140 where I live and I immediately ran to the hardware store to buy better AC filters, and more air purifiers. How are you handling it in a practical sense?

Practically speaking... I guess you get used it. Yesterday I spent the afternoon outside by a river in 200+ AQI, and it didn't seem too bad. I use an N95 mask if it's bothering me, and a respirator if I have a lot of work to do outside.

The main issue for me so far has been psychological. Summer used to be peak season here, with tons of amazing nature and outdoor activities. Now, it's just a waiting game until the rain starts back up again.

The loss of place is palpable, honestly. My niece and nephew have never gotten to experience a normal summer: https://imgur.com/a/EAVStxe

Edit: This graph cuts off at 2018, but believe me when I say that 2019, 2020, and 2021 have been even worse.

Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#336

Post by ghshephard »

nicoburns wrote: post #178
ghshephard wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the parent. Killing the AC for weeks on end really helped me acclimate to the local temperature. I'm not saying it resulted in quality sleep (as a Canadian - I set the thermostat to 13 degrees in the winter when sleeping, and my ideal temperature in the summer is about 18 degrees) - but you get used to the outdoor climate reasonably quickly (in my case, about 4-6 months).

Is 18 degrees assuming a fairly warm duvet covers / blankets? When I was staying hostels the dorms would sometimes be air conditioned and only a sheet would be provided for cover, and I struggled to sleep in anything colder than 21, and I'd have had it up to 22-24 if I could.

Sort of - now that I live in Michigan, and re-acclimated to a northern climate, at 21 I have to sleep on top of blankets or I overheat (though, I will find that after a few hours, my body cools down while sleeping and I may pull a blanket overtop me). 18 + a normal duvet is perfection. Cool enough for blankets, but not so cold that I feel uncomfortable.

This is mostly a meditation on the fact that I used to be able to sleep in temperatures of 26-27 in Singapore. The human body (at least this one) can definitely acclimate to local environments given some time and exposure.

Of course - no acclimating whatsoever will help you if the wetbulb temperature gets up to 35. You are just dead unless you can find some active cooling at that point fairly quickly.

Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#337

Post by kristjansson »

chinchilla2020 wrote: post #300
spywaregorilla wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it amusing that people are trying to downplay this because it is feasibly survivable in their opinions. If you're wondering "how I can survive these circumstances in my own home?" things are already really, really bad.

95 Fahrenheit is actually quite survivable. It is dangerous for old people, young people, and the very sick when combined with sun exposure and other factors. I spent much of my life living in that temperature range without A/C, working outside during the day in the sun. It's hot but not going to kill you. In fact, there are massive homeless encampments outside my window right now in extremely humid, hot, Texas weath…

N.B. the 35c/95f temperature they're talking about is _not_ air temperature. It's 'wet bulb' temperature, or what the air temperature would be at 100% humidity. Only when the actual humidity is 100% are the two equivalent. Otherwise, the wet-bulb temperature measures the lowest temperature achievable by evaporative cooling. The survivability concerns of sweat being unable to cool humans below hyperthermic levels should be obvious.

At quick check, humidity in Houston is like 55%, so the wet-bulb temperature is only ~80f. Uncomfortably hot, but not close to the threshold discussed in TFA.

Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#338

Post by numpad0 »

giantg2 wrote: post #259
numpad0 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wet bulb thermometer is the kind that a pair of thermometers are mounted together with one wrapped in wet cotton and the other dry. Typically between the two glass tubes is a little look up table that gives humidity from current dry bulb temperature and delta between the two. I don't know what exactly environment reaching 35C/95F web bulb means, but considering 1) it indicates temperature of a thermometer cooled by e…

"I think it means evaporative cooling aka sweating is becoming useless. It won't be a huge stretch to consider that unsurvivable." This assumes there are no alternatives to evaporative cooling via sweat.

Indeed. Strapping on a pair of active CPU heatsink through a B6 sized aluminum cold plate to the back of waist helps immensely in that kind of climate. But it needs constant 12V/0.5-1A DC supply.

Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#339

Post by kristjansson »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #313
chinchilla2020 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

95 Fahrenheit is actually quite survivable. It is dangerous for old people, young people, and the very sick when combined with sun exposure and other factors. I spent much of my life living in that temperature range without A/C, working outside during the day in the sun. It's hot but not going to kill you. In fact, there are massive homeless encampments outside my window right now in extremely humid, hot, Texas weath…

95F in dry air is not the same thing as wet bulb 95F. That is the majority of the discussion being had in other threads.

Critically, not just 'dry air' vs 'humid' in the human sense. Wet-bulb is temperature at 100% relative humidity. A 'humid' day in the human sense is like 60-70%.

Re: The emergence of heat and humidity too severe for human tolerance (2020)

#340

Post by FormhellFrom »

mrfusion wrote: post #290
treebot wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about just nationalizing the entire energy industry and everything related, instead of trying to work within the parameters of a free market for something with so many externalities?

Interesting. It’s possible the government could run it well but I would worry without a profit motive they might not adjust to supply and demand quickly and might not pursue new technologies like fusion.

energy research is typically publicly funded, no? With a profit motive, why would you even do anything besides the easiest and cheapest option of burning fossil fuels?

Fusion research, especially, is so pie-in-the-sky right now that I doubt any profit-motivated company would even touch it with a 10 foot pole.

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