Australia is becoming a surveillance state • Hacker News Board

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#251

Post by chiefalchemist » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

L_226 wrote: post #66

Since leaving Australia (and started living in Europe) I have come to the conclusion that Australia is not a "real" country - it is just a continent owned by corporate interests that happens to also have people living on it. Corporate interests own the media, politicians, food production, education etc. and no one cares, because Life Is Good. Why expect anything to change, or people to care about strong democratic in…

> "Decades of bull markets, house price increases, a decline in public education, torpedoed communication infrastructure and complicit "independent" media has resulted in a wealthy, ignorant and complacent society who allow their representatives full control over their lives. It is not that they don't care about these issues, they are not even aware they are issues at all."

This bit - as well as the overall comment in general - describes nearly every Western democracy at this point. Yes, there are variations but the arc is similar overall.

The issues and narratives come down from higher up and are distributed via tightly owned (read: powerful) media conglomerates. It's simply one distraction after another. The collective memory of the masses resembles - pardon the editorial - a gold fish.

The idea that the internet would open hearts and minds has yet to materialize as promised. Perhaps it's time to prepare for the realization that it never will? Or at least stop being so naive as to think that it wouldn't be used against us? Because as it is, it is.

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#252

Post by c_o_n_v_e_x » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #140

bradrn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the most basic level: if people don’t leave, they can’t come back with the virus. Also, we’ve instituted mandatory hotel quarantine for anyone coming to Australia. But hotel quarantine only has a certain number of places; if less people leave Australia, then less people will come back and fill up hotel quarantine spaces.

Indeed. It’s kind of amazing that Singapore, often accused of being overly authoritarian, took a much softer approach to Covid than Australia. You could always leave. Citizens and PRs could always come back (although if they left after a certain date they had to pay for their care if they got Covid). Even immigrants workers could leave. You needed permission to come back, but unless Covid was raging they took in quit…

"Even immigrant workers could leave"

This is true however return for foreigners was never guaranteed. It has opened up only very recently. I've been stuck in Singapore for 2 years as of last weekend.

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#253

Post by c_o_n_v_e_x » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

sumedh wrote: post #122

wormseed wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia's covid policy of indefinitely banning citizens from leaving was the last straw for me. I won't be back.

What was the justification in banning citizens from leaving?

Prevent the tax dodgers from going back and forth to Bali

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#254

Post by inkblotuniverse » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

shric wrote: post #128

logicchains wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't expect you to understand, but in Europe, people actually care about their rights [1] That's a bit condescending. In recent weeks there were tens of thousands of people marching on the streets of Sydney and Melbourne to protest covid lockdowns and defend their right to free assembly.

Do you have a source for "tens of thousands"? I think it was fewer than 10k. Thankfully only 3,500 in Sydney out of a population of 5 million. Fortunately the vast majority of Australians aren't completely selfish and thoughtless. Nobody likes lockdowns. The government doesn't benefit from them, it's not lining some evil overlord's pockets.

>The government doesn't benefit from them It gains more control over people's lives and consolidates economic power into megacorporations. Shrinks the pie, but you have more direct control over it, and megacorp one will have better bribes bribes you than 1000 mom and pop stores. Seems like an okay deal to me.

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#255

Post by inkblotuniverse » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

justinclift wrote: post #196

ghiculescu wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you describe protesting as illegal kinda says it all.

Err... we're literally in a pandemic, where people getting together in large numbers makes things worse. When we're not in pandemic conditions, people are quite welcome to gather and protest whatever the heck they want.

What a great precedent! Now we can just keep the (declaration of) pandemic going for the next 10 years, and we have license to shut down anything we like!

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#256

Post by noxer » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

brokenmachine wrote: post #127

Cyril_HN wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the point. The point is that it means a government must resort to violence and it may be unwilling to do so. Whereas if people don't have guns, then the government can be incredibly overpowering without having to step over the threshold of violence, which makes it more likely.

Governments have no problem "stepping over the threshold" and using violence. If you think that the US government wouldn't use violence against its own people for breaking laws, even hastily-written or unfair laws, you're sorely mistaken.

There is no such things as "the government who enforces laws" its people who enforce laws and they wont if they dont agree and dont have a monopoly on violence. Also "hastily-written or unfair laws" wont be enacted if there is a realistic chance you pay with your life for doing so.

The guns are there for when the legal way to solve stuff no longer works and laws are no longer of any meaning. Saying its against the law to use them or that law enforcement will enforce any law no matter what is pure ignorance. Civil wars happens and if there is one you better hope both sides have guns because else its not a war its a takeover.

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#257

Post by inkblotuniverse » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:35 PM UTC

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #105

noxer wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget they disarmed the people. If some people ever start to care they wont have the boomstick power. They maybe be upside down but authoritarian regimes work the same, secure the monopoly on force by removing arms is a key step for any authoritarian gov.

Guns in the hands of the Australians who want guns in their hands is an outcome that's about a thousand times worse than a "disarmed people". Also, anyone think that a US civilian militia has more than a snowball's chance in hell against any committed government-deployed force? Tell 'im 'e's dreamin'

Yes, when that militia is in every town. In the end, you need boots on the ground.

A government is a parasitic organism. Quashing resistance only makes sense if it's cost-effective. E.g. nuking your own country is insane; at some point, it's just cheaper to compromise.

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#258

Post by partomniscient » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:38 PM UTC

eightails wrote: post #235

partomniscient wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy as implemented is stupid. I want to vote on policy I care about and understand, not a person I've never met who I can't necessarily trust that's meant to represent me. The system has failed. I was horrified to see how far we'd fallen. When COVID hit, I thought they'd at least have some basic model on the shelf to extrapolate a response from. Nope. All that kind of forward thinking seems to have gone along w…

> Democracy as implemented is stupid. > I want to vote on policy I care about and understand, not a person I've never met who I can't necessarily trust that's meant to represent me. Representative democracy is designed as a compromise between giving power to the people and giving (what's perceived as) too much power to the people. In the case of a true direct democracy, many fear the ignorance and apathy of the avera…

>In the case of a true direct democracy, many fear the ignorance and apathy of the average voter, and wonder if the majority rule would lead to tribalism and repression of minorities.

I'm more concerned about power vacuums created by value extraction. We were swindled without realising it, in fact some of us enjoyed it - but only because we don't know what we lost. There can be very weird dynamics at play. Unfortunately the descendants of those are eventually left holding the bag and find out what they lost.

I would amend things such that if the Peasants were happy and everyone else was busy then Confucius is happy (because he's not being disturbed). I actually hope for more happy than that, but I'll take what I can get.

The main part of the problem with achieving the perfect system is that it has to also resolve all of the already imperfect systems in play. And you need to work out 'who' gets to define perfection.

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#259

Post by BiteCode_dev » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

partomniscient wrote: post #162

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australian have temporary immigration, becomming permanent is actually quite hard compared to europe where you can basically just walk in there. Also, I consider it a chance to be able to go to school as well, it doesn't mean exams are easy. Immigration is the same. It gives, and it takes. Because australia is an island with a pretty good legal filter for immigrants, they get less social tensions. Also because they h…

Based on what I've heard/read a lot of us would fail our own immigration test on Australian knowledge. I grew up here in our system and was only vaguely aware there was even a second verse in our national anthem. The people trying to become citizens here and have only been here for a short time knew _all_ the words.

I'm planning on using the c word a lot at the exam to sound more native

Re: Australia is becoming a surveillance state

#260

Post by wombatmobile » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

nxmnxm99 wrote: post #239

hestefisk wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is nicely said. I grew up in a Western European country where I was used to most people caring about big societal issues such as health, environment, civil rights and privacy. In most European countries there is real competition between newspapers and an, at least in some places, a tradition of democratic participation. Meanwhile, in Australia, the “free press” is effectively owned by Rupert Murdoch, the…

I can't imagine living in a place where everyone is constantly moralizing about things like "media diversity". How exhausting.

What do you mean by "moralizing"?

To me, "moralizing" is when I tell you to not do something that I don't like but which doesn't directly affect me. Like, don't drink alcohol to excess, or don't cheat at cards, or don't swear in front of kids, or always tell the truth.

I have an opinion that media diversity benefits society, and I don't consider that "moralizing". I consider it caring about my community, and I consider opposing media monopoly to be fighting back against an individual who would denigrate society for his own ends. That's not moralizing - that's standing up for ourselves.