Default disappearing messages • Hacker News Board

Re: Default disappearing messages

#111

Post by tharne » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:21 PM UTC

stavros wrote: post #55

vasiliys wrote: post #48

Persistent messages seem like the obvious better default. 99.9% of my conversations have no obscene secrets, but a solid 1% have information that might be search-worthy. Hangouts / gChat seemed to get this right - extremely fast search and an "off the record" function for when you can't switch to an ephemeral alternative (usually a phone call). I know HN has a higher proportion of the reasonably-paranoid EFF-loving p…

It's not about obscene secrets, I was just a different person at 18 than I am at 40. Having what I said back then persist forever serves no purpose. Same for things I said months ago, what's the use?

> It's not about obscene secrets, I was just a different person at 18 than I am at 40.

I don't know why so few people consider this point. People change, social norms change, so it's very easy for an older conversation to be used in such a way as to make someone look horrible, even if they were not, and are not, a horrible person.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#112

Post by tablespoon » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:22 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #99

Ericson2314 wrote: post #22

I dunno, I think being able to hoard your own data shouldn't be demonized or valorized? Fine with whatever the default is, but I feel like the subtext here is that Signal thinks people's phones are going to be increasingly compromised so this will be a more necessary, and the "remember the passing acoustic conversation" is just a way to put a less depressing spin on that.

Disappearing messages by default could further weaken social protections. Police and authorities can have logs (either of everyone or high value targets) and those people won't have access to their own messages to defend themselves. It even means chat conversations can be entirely fabricated by one side, and the other has no way to refute it.

> Disappearing messages by default could further weaken social protections.

> Police and authorities can have logs (either of everyone or high value targets) and those people won't have access to their own messages to defend themselves.

> It even means chat conversations can be entirely fabricated by one side, and the other has no way to refute it.

I don't think that's a realistic threat, and if it was, the defense you propose wouldn't work.

Given that Signal is E2E encrypted, I don't see the mechanism where the police and authorities could even have logs without compromising the endpoints. Furthermore, even if they did fabricate a message, it's not like your phone is some inviolable log of what you actually sent. Even with Signal today, you can delete messages on an ah-hoc basis, so their rebuttal (that you sent it but deleted it from your phone) would be exactly the same.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#113

Post by lmm » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

skinkestek wrote: post #98

skinkestek wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's basic, but it's valid. I wrote basic framing . It is a valid and effective marketing technique but not something you should rely on in a technical discussion. > if whether it's E2E-encrypted matters in your threat model, then whether it's E2E-encrypted still matters in your threat model even if other aspects of the system are secure. Then we agree :-) I've been communicating over email, irc and lots of other c…

Ok, so I had try one more time to look this up, and here is what Wikipedia says. (They also point to where it was written originally and an archive of the source.): > WhatsApp was initially criticized for its lack of encryption, sending information as plaintext.[198] Encryption was first added in May 2012.[199][200][201] End-to-end encryption was only fully implemented in April 2016 after a two-year process. from the…

You wrote "Remember, when Telegram came around WhatsApp was un-encrypted. Not point-to-point encrypted, just encoded." Given that Telegram was first released in 2013, your own quote contradicts that.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#114

Post by pixxel » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

fitblipper wrote: post #68

Ive shifted to disappearing messages by default for about 4 months now and I like how it feels to communicate in this way! It feels more like talking directly with someone instead of collaboratively filling out a log. One mental shift is to remember that if something is said that I need to remember I need to write it down in a different place (much like I would need to if we were talking face to face). I've also foun…

> One mental shift is to remember that if something is said that I need to remember I need to write it down in a different place

I write it down in the same place. I have a pinned conversation with myself that I drop notes (typed/audio). Also useful for recording audio messages which you can play back to yourself before forwarding to a Signal contact (I hate that there’s no preview before sending audio).

Re: Default disappearing messages

#115

Post by skinkestek » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

lmm wrote: post #113

skinkestek wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so I had try one more time to look this up, and here is what Wikipedia says. (They also point to where it was written originally and an archive of the source.): > WhatsApp was initially criticized for its lack of encryption, sending information as plaintext.[198] Encryption was first added in May 2012.[199][200][201] End-to-end encryption was only fully implemented in April 2016 after a two-year process. from the…

You wrote "Remember, when Telegram came around WhatsApp was un-encrypted. Not point-to-point encrypted, just encoded." Given that Telegram was first released in 2013, your own quote contradicts that.

ok, now I admit you might have caught me in a mistake. Thanks! I like to get corrected. Edit: and have my upvote.

Now: can you admit that WhatsApp was unencrypted and you were wrong?

Re: Default disappearing messages

#116

Post by GistNoesis » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

quaintdev wrote: post #108

GistNoesis wrote: post #76

Sorry for the confused rant that follow (Hopefully HN will auto-delete it in 42 hours ): The variable duration of the message adds one additional layer of complexity to the already messy game of social communication. It's not like a session at the park or a phone call that once you close it, it's over. I already had trouble understanding the concept of ephemeral message, like you say something to me but expect me to…

Imagine people had the ability to revisit your every single conversations with them. Would your relationships improve or degrade?

If you are in a high trust environment, once you accept that both yourself and people can change, are subject to external factors and have an open mind with enough forgiveness, having this ability to revisit conversations is a net positive.

If people are not adversarial then all extra information that you can handle properly is good.

It will also help people perceive a lot more depth in other people. And that will help good relationships grow and help avoid bad relationships.

It will help alleviate miscommunication issues and give more weight to intent.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#117

Post by EvanAnderson » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #63

EvanAnderson wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My view is exactly the opposite. Having suffered from the "I thought you said..." problem (where other parties recall a verbal conversation differently than me, out of forgetfulness on either of our parts or to serve their interests) for so much of my life I welcome these ubiquitous devices that augment my memory and provide black and white clarity to what was actually said. I have no nostalgia for lossy recall and t…

Imagine someone recording, transcribing, and searchable indexing every phone call you have ever made or setting up a microphone for every conversation you have. I don’t think that is healthy and that is what text messaging is now. It’s more like a legal deposition.

That sounds lovely. A recorded, transcribed, indexed version of my life (something like MyLifeBits[0], I suppose) would be a glorious addition to my biological memory.

If I could be assured of privacy in the recordings (which I think isn't achievable today) I'd jump at the chance. I don't think I have a particularly bad memory, but it's not exceptional and won't be getting better as I get older. The idea of enhanced recall is very exciting to me.

I wish the technology was something available to everybody should they choose to partake. Society would have to adapt. What is human history, though, if not a narrative about society adapting to technological change?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyLifeBits

Re: Default disappearing messages

#118

Post by EvanAnderson » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 3:21 PM UTC

mnsc wrote: post #109

jan_Inkepa wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it often useful to be able to go back and search through conversations. Even trivial things can become part of a richer back and forth if you can remember + reference them. It helps keep the oblivion of forgetting at bay, which is for me terrifying and really depressing. People who turn on transient messaging, it's their right, and I get it, but it's also hobbling me from doing what I'm quite good at and basic…

"You say you don't want to go out for drinks with me because you're 'cutting back on alcohol', yet curiously I found in our chat log that you two years ago, almost to the day, said, and I quoute 'Thos cutting back on alcohol are just pussies, I will _never_ [your emphasis not mine] cut back on alcohol, life's just to much fun drunk! =DDDD lol'. So I guess you are lying and just don't want to hang out with me anymore!…

That sounds awful and certainly not what I was thinking about in the GP post.

That's not to say that having a persistent log of communication might not expose someone's pattern of lying. If it did I'd definitely incorporate that knowledge into how I interact with that person. It's not something I'd ever state explicitly, nor that I'd necessarily tell anybody else, but it would be factored-in to how I deal with that person.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#119

Post by Vinnl » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

mrpotato wrote: post #93

Vinnl wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose that's why: > We’ve also added the ability to set custom timer durations on your conversations, so that some content can be gone in 60 seconds and others can exist for 18 minutes or 4 weeks.

I thought the same as you until I checked how it worked in the app. Maximum is 4 weeks, there is no higher option.

Shame! Thanks for verifying though.

Re: Default disappearing messages

#120

Post by jraph » Wed, Aug 11, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

iHaveRegrets wrote: post #89

uuddlrlr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Play Services or microg is also required.

This hasn't been true for quite a long time. Signal works perfectly fine on a google-free phone. Edit to clarify: Signal sets up a background connection instead, which still results in real-time notifications (the same way that Wire works on a phone without Google Play services)

Your comment was dead, I vouched for it. I think you are correct. It was correct a while ago anyway.

A year ago or two, I wanted to build Signal for Android without the proprietary library that talks with google play services. It was possible by modifying the source code a bit, because the code checks for the presence of the handles the absence of the Google play Services and enables some sort of fallback.

I would not know if it is still the case today, I don't currently own an Android device.