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Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

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Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#61

Post by Taft »

jxcole wrote: post #47
Taft wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the increasingly vocal outcry of rampant patent abuse, it's also possible that tech giants begin publicly stating their position towards US patent law: it needn't exist (or one of the many alternatives that have been proposed). If the market can metabolize that, patent law reform isn't far away.

I would agree except that a bunch of companies just bought some patents for $4.5 billion. If patents become ineffective, the value of that purchase is $0. Very few companies are going to look on this as a positive thing.

The reason companies acquire and add to their massive stockpiles of patents is because, like arms races, no one wants to stop playing the game until the game is called off. Unlike arms races, patents are intellectual creations and the "game" can be ended simply by setting precedents in court and reforming existing law.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#62

Post by cma »

andrew1 wrote: post #28
lutorm wrote: post #20

So if Apple is infringing because they used AMD hardware, aren't everyone who owns a machine with AMD hardware also infringing? While the whole patent system is tending toward absurdity, it's really absurd that you can be sued for infringement by using a product that infringes even if you have no idea or even a way of knowing that...

It might be the reason that Apple are infringing on the patent is that they are selling, not just using, a product which contains something which infringes the patent.

Using something with unlicensed patented technology exposes you to liability as well. Otherwise you could just make shell companies to add the final software piece to a product and cleanse the liability from all the other players.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#63

Post by erydo »

wanderful wrote: post #58
erydo wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They already purchased those patents, though. It's kind of a sunk cost. They wouldn't be losing $4.5 billion cash if patents became worthless, they'd be losing ammunition for a type of fight that they wouldn't have to deal with anymore. That's like saying, "We can't stop fighting this war, then all our guns would be worthless."

It's very much like saying that, which doesn't mean it's not persuasive reasoning. It may not be ultimately rational reasoning, but it appeals to many people. That's why it's called the sunk cost fallacy . :)

Yep, I was referring to the fallacy. I know people don't always make rational decisions—and there are many other considerations here besides—but I thought it worth pointing out that it's not quite so obvious that the large companies would be against patent dissolution.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#64

Post by sbov »

Astrohacker wrote: post #35
scarmig wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that government is the monopoly of the application of force. When you have a competitive market in force...

Then governments would be less forceful because people do not like to be forced to do stuff.

I read that to imply that war is application of governmental free markets. You would still need some governing government to ensure that all the free market governments don't eliminate eachother. And now you're back to the same thing.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#65

Post by Pewpewarrows »

Steko wrote: post #57
Pewpewarrows wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that Android devices are just clones of the iPhone, and that it gives Apple just cause to strike first, I'm not even going to bother writing a real response.

Trust me, you didn't. Android is not "just a clone" but it's clear that they decided to aggressively clone the iphone's features. If you don't think that's obvious, you missed what Android looked like 6 months before the iphone debut and 6 months after. Now whether those features are protectable as IP or not is another matter but if they are it's no surprise that Apple would want to enforce such protections.

Aggressively clone as in...? A top statusbar? A touchscreen? A virtual keyboard? A grid layout of applications? Custom applications? Hate to break it to you, but iOS wasn't the first to do any of those, Android included most of them before the iPhone announcement (from the little that we know of its development at Google beginning in 2005), and the first Android phone (G1) didn't resemble the iPhone more than any other smartphone on the market. Most people that I knew were comparing it to the Sidekick when it first released.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#66

Post by GHFigs »

Pewpewarrows wrote: post #43
GHFigs wrote: post #31

It's amusing that when there is a ruling in HTC's favor the headline is: "Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents"...but when there was a ruling in Apple's favor it was: "Apple's Plot to Kill Top Android Maker HTC Nears Fruition With Win" The latter being illustrated with a picture of Steve Jobs as the Emperor from Star Wars. Classy.

As others have noted, it's because Apple decided to get their hands dirty first claiming intellectual property with ridiculously broad patents. In that sense HTC is being perceived as defending itself to the bully on the playground by throwing back punches.

Jobs-as-Palpatine, really?

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#67

Post by wheels »

erydo wrote: post #51
jxcole wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree except that a bunch of companies just bought some patents for $4.5 billion. If patents become ineffective, the value of that purchase is $0. Very few companies are going to look on this as a positive thing.

They already purchased those patents, though. It's kind of a sunk cost. They wouldn't be losing $4.5 billion cash if patents became worthless, they'd be losing ammunition for a type of fight that they wouldn't have to deal with anymore. That's like saying, "We can't stop fighting this war, then all our guns would be worthless."

Bad analogy. The war isn't over patents, it's general competition. It's more like the UN pushing you to sign a treaty pledging not to use nukes just after you spent a pile acquiring them.

Now if patents were only used defensively (which they're obviously not in this case, since Apple went on the attack) the analogy would then be banning ballistic missiles right after acquiring a ballistic missile defense system, which would be easier to swallow.

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#68

Post by neutronicus »

erydo wrote: post #51
jxcole wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree except that a bunch of companies just bought some patents for $4.5 billion. If patents become ineffective, the value of that purchase is $0. Very few companies are going to look on this as a positive thing.

They already purchased those patents, though. It's kind of a sunk cost. They wouldn't be losing $4.5 billion cash if patents became worthless, they'd be losing ammunition for a type of fight that they wouldn't have to deal with anymore. That's like saying, "We can't stop fighting this war, then all our guns would be worthless."

Potential revenues from patents aren't a sunk cost...

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#69

Post by Steko »

The level of IP related discourse on HN is reminiscent of talking politics with people who spend all their time listening to talk radio. I mean of course Ronald Reagan singlehandedly killed communism and minorities caused the housing crisis but did you know that the entire patent and copyright system could be removed tomorrow and everything would be just hunky dory?

Fact: way too many obvious or stupid patents are granted.

The solution is not to abolish patents, the solution is to properly staff and fund the USPTO and/or change the system so that rubber stamping applications with approved is not incentivized.

You could fund it by taxing the patents themselves. Think your patent is worth $10 million? Ok, you owe the USPTO $100K and the legal damages you can claim from violation of that patent are capped at $10 million (this allows the competition to effectively public domain patents by buying them out).

Re: Judge Finds Apple in Violation of HTC's Newly Acquired Patents

#70

Post by redthrowaway »

kenjackson wrote: post #53

Given this is a HW and SW patent, and my superficial reading leads me to believe that this may infringe on HW -- this isn't your typical SW patent issue. It's HW too. Are people ready to say that HW patents, such as those held by Intel and ARM, should also go bye-bye?

If they're of the same general quality as software patents, then yes. I sure as hell don't want anyone holding a patent on "a process and system for fashioning transistors from silicon".
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