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American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

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Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK maths teaching is fairly terrible. Not only do they start later, it's almost never taught meaningfully, instead relying on memorising rote formulae. I grew up hating maths, it wasn't until YouTube came along and the sheer amount of _good_ maths content on there that I started to 'get' the bits I just never understood as a teenager. Most of my friends will still say things like 'I just don't get algebra / I don't d…

What are the relevant channels? My kid is very interested in it but the 3B1B type stuff is a bit too far ahead. He wants to learn algebra next.

Not sure about youtube, but for the right age kid, maybe late-elementary to early high school, there's a weekly "Joyful math jamboree" online. The web page for it is not updated very often, but the registration form still works.

There's also the Julia Robinson Math Festival that's supposed to be good but I don't have first-hand experience.

Ideally, a Math Circle would could be good for some kids if your area supports one.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#292

"Russian Math" seems to just be "More Math". The basic education concepts at ploy here are well known, just not widely deployed. Why? IMO it's because of what I think is the sole problem with american education - parents themselves not caring if their kids actually know anything. It's actually common, extremely common, for american parents to think that the point of education is to get a piece of paper (degree) or to…

Is there evidence that knowing how to do math is actually beneficial to most people?

I think it's easy to criticize when ignoring the possibility that much of what is taught in American schools is actually just useless and very little of it is retained after schooling ends.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#294
post #257
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal experience is that it wasn't just hours. Those who liked math spent a lot of time on it after classes. Those who didn't, avoided extras and still did OK (they would not go to top universities, but the base would be OK, with some practice, if they decide to go to a mid-level school). The biggest difference for me in school was a consistent, well thought out program (one for the whole country) and books. A…

That is indeed terrifying. Not to take away from the importance of a well-thought-out program, learning materials, or competent teachers, I was drawing attention to the immense time and effort that some students would invest often with an institutionalized help. In our case, the programs were standardized, the textbooks were virtually the same throughout the union. Barred special schools and eccentric teachers, all k…

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Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#297
I was born in the USSR but was in New York for Jr Highschool and Highschool. Whenever my dad saw the math curriculum he assumed I was in some sort of "slow program" - he could not believe that the mainstream program is that un-challenging.

I bet there's a lot of factors to why curriculum gets watered down but I do think recent focus on how kids feel about school, self-esteem, safe spaces, etc goes against hard-core curricula.

When you learn for real (and this extends to adults as well) you are confronted with things you don't know how to do, and you have to bang against them for a while to solve them and learn. That feeling of "wait, maybe I can't do this / I don't get it" is a negative one. And it does create a situation where some percentage of kids can't hack it, so they are excluded/left behind.

I think as a culture we've been making the choice to teach/do easy things that everyone can participate in, rather than do challenging things that will force some people to grow more while leaving some behind. It's not a choice I agree with but I guess I can follow the zeitgeist and logic of it for a certain extent. It's the same as NYC, SF and other cities getting rid of the specialized schools with entrance exams. Since some people can't hack it, it's an exclusionary approach and therefore getting rid of the exams on one hand equalizes access on the other hand waters down the standards.

I do think there will be unintended but obvious consequences as we're seeing in this story: parents who know better, who want the best for their kids will invest in tutors, private schools, etc that challenge their kids when the mainstream schools do not. The effect will be that within the school system, everyone is doing easy things that everyone can do, but in outcome space there will be a larger gap between kids of parents who care/can afford something beyond public school and those who cannot. In the long run, this will cause greater inequality because there will be come percentage of kids whose parents can't give them a leg up that would have risen to the challenge in a tougher curriculum but now will not have a chance to do so.

In my eye this is unfortunate both because we're creating a less educated populace and a less confident one. The idea of being brave and confident means you take on a challenge knowing you have a good shot of eventually overcoming it. This holds at school and it holds in the work place. I am not sure how many people who never had their ass kicked (for a while) by school work and then had the experience of "getting it" will then come into a work situation and be able to "stretch" by taking on work they don't quite know how to do yet. Not the path I am chasing for my kid.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#298
post #23

My college had a decent-sized contingent of Bulgarian & Romanian international students. The difference in their math abilities upon entry was striking. While most of my American-born classmates struggled in discrete math, linear algebra, and vector calc, my Bulgarian friend was like "I learned this when I was 9." They were frequently tapped as TAs by the professors, because they understood the material on a level th…

Romanian here, the "I learned this when I was 9" might have been a slight exaggeration so that your friend could make a point, but as an another anecdata I can say that I distinctly remember one of my first calculus classes while I was in 9th grade (I think I was 15 years old at the time) and our maths teacher trying to explain to us how real numbers are defined and, more importantly, what that definition really mean…

I used to know online a Romanian who had moved to Canada sometime during high school, she made similar points about the slowness of the North American curriculum. I told her about my 11th grade AP Physics C material (which uses calculus) in America and she indicated that in Romania they forced her to learn all that stuff years ago. However she wasn't exactly helpful when I later asked if she could help me with something, she'd forgotten too much and anyway didn't have an interest to keep up or go further. I'm still left unconvinced in the superiority of other countries teaching their kids so much more so much earlier when it seems to be forgotten not long after, and of course there are the long-standing "where are the results?" counter-arguments. It's hard not to be skeptical of prolonged compulsory education of any quality.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#299

And then there is Singapore math https://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/education/01math.html

Strangely enough, I'm an American who was taught Singapore math in elementary school.

Then my family moved to a nearby city where they taught standard American math and I wasn't allowed to solve math problems the Singapore way. Even though I got the correct answers, the teachers insisted I do math the "right" way, which I consistently messed up for the rest of my life.

Singapore math not only has a more reasonable pace to learning, but as someone with inattentive ADHD I found its approach to arithmetic easier for me to keep track of in my head.

Even if people have heard of Singapore math, they might not know that things like addition are done left-to-right rather than right-to-left.

https://youtu.be/HS7BDq73pRE?t=44

I don't know about anyone else, but that is more like how I do math in my head on a day to day basis since the first step gets you closer to the answer. Just doing more addition underneath is also more visually clean than carrying numbers by writing them above the original equation. Paper is plentiful, and now I'm sure it could all be done digitally, so there's no reason to use standard American math to save space.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somehow American Math doesn't have the same connotations. I am witnessing public schools take math out of the curriculum at elementary, middle and high schools. It is a wasted opportunity for young people to learn the beauty of math.

Bizarre. Where I am math and English remain king and queen of getting-on-the-schedule. Being "tested subjects" from very early grades, is the main reason. They've all but eliminated recess in elementary, and have reduced hours for things like art & music, to make sure they have plenty of time for them, since school prestige and funding rely heavily on testing well just in those two subjects.

Maybe there's good reason for that? Reading and math are fundamental for a much broader range of occupations than art and music.
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