Messaging and chat control • Hacker News Board

Re: Messaging and chat control

#71

Post by y04nn » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #23

I wonder how much people there actually are who don't yet know child porn is a classic bullshit excuse governments use every time they want more control over the Internet. It's so classic, so blatant it feels cringy already. Not even for a second I would believe they do this to actually protect children.

True, it even has a name "Four Horsemen of the Infocalypse". If it was about protecting the children there would be more prevention toward the children to make them aware and report any inappropriate act to a teacher, parent, relative that they can trust.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_of_the_Infocalyp...

Re: Messaging and chat control

#72

Post by bondarchuk » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

toxik wrote: post #41

herbst wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still no and far from a direct democracy.

Direct democracy is not a panacea. In fact, it can be quite the opposite. Fair and effective governance is a very difficult thing to achieve, tending either to be subvertible, or totalitarian.

I think representative democracy specifically does not work to stave off totalitarianism. When the issue under consideration is about increasing the power of politicians over the citizenry, many politicians will switch from voting as representatives of citizens, to voting as politicians. A binding referendum that can only retract proposed laws, like we have/had/will have (sorry, I don't know exactly) in NL, seems like it could largely solve this issue, provided it gets sufficient traction.

Re: Messaging and chat control

#73

Post by cjfd » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

zibzab wrote: post #19

kristjank wrote: post #3

I think this isn't getting nearly enough traction, especially considering how undemocratic EU's legislative procedures can get. Considering the lack of direct democracy in the European Union, exposure and public protest is the only viable way to oppose this legislature. There's also an ongoing petition against the legislature: https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/preserve-eprivac...

Hold your horses, put down the pitchforks. You realise the author is a _member of the European Parliament_?? And at least in my corner of EU we vote on who to send to EU parliament. You can vote on whoever you want in the national elections and then vote for the pirate party for the EU seat. Edit: from your comment history I guess you vote far right, which is usually the part of EU pushing hardest for these measures?…

The EU parliament has far too little power to come anywhere close to the EU being a democracy. The problem being that in second reading there has to be a 2/3 majority to approve amendments.

Re: Messaging and chat control

#74

Post by ailef » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

collaborative wrote: post #54

As the developer of an E2EE chat system, how could this affect me? Would I be forced to do something? I fall under a non-EU jurisdiction, and my servers are also outside of the EU. Would this apply to me or my users in the least? Thanks

I'm not a lawyer, but I suppose it will apply in the same way GDPR applies to anyone who wants to access the EU market (regardless of where you/your servers are). That is, if you're fine with your system not being accessible from the EU because of non-compliance you should be fine?

Don't take my word for it though, I'm just assuming. Maybe somebody with more knowledge chan chime in.

Re: Messaging and chat control

#75

Post by lholden » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

Politicians really like to use "child pornography" as a wedge issue for surveillance as it's a topic that people overwhelmingly see as "a bad thing". This screams slippery slope.

Re: Messaging and chat control

#76

Post by bondarchuk » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

loriverkutya wrote: post #28

herbst wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still no and far from a direct democracy.

Can you please be sensible? Direct demoracy is not working with 445 million people.

Mathematically it's not more difficult to determine the majority vote among 400 million people, than among 10 million. What would prevent it from working for you?

Re: Messaging and chat control

#77

Post by aww_dang » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

kristjank wrote: post #17

ForHackernews wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably they're referring to requirements for vaccinations to attend large public gatherings. I think it's an absurd hyperbole, myself.

Is it really, though? Both child abuse and the pandemic are serious issues with real world victims, and both are riddled with privacy, anonymity and personal integrity issues. If we don't act against them, people will die/get hurt, and if we act against it in a Macchiavelian manner, democracy and quality of our life suffers enormously. My observation is that in the name of: a) Covid b) Counterterrorism c) Child abuse…

The abuses rationalized by the War on Terror, such as mass surveillance and profiling haven't been walked back. Yet many somehow believe vaccine passports won't be similarly result in mission creep and abuse. More recently it has been suggested to expand the designation of terrorist to include those who have concerns about this process.

When has government willingly returned liberties taken under emergency pretenses? Once Pandora's box is opened...

Re: Messaging and chat control

#78

Post by sneak » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

foerbert wrote: post #51

sneak wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iMessage has an e2e backdoor on by default in the form of plaintext escrow via iCloud Backup (not e2e). iMessage is, in practice today, no longer e2e. Apple knows this and intentionally preserves this backdoor for the FBI: https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1ZK1CT

For a little more context, see https://www.howtogeek.com/710509/apples-imessage-is-secure..... For those unfamiliar, as I was, it appears iCloud backup is enabled by default. I think the above statement about iMessage not being e2e in practice is very fair.

Note that even if you disable iCloud/iCloud Backup, all of your iMessages will still be leaked unencrypted to Apple via the phone on the other end of the conversation that still has iCloud Backup enabled.

Re: Messaging and chat control

#79

Post by y04nn » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

ciconia wrote: post #38

Does anybody have an idea how big child pornography is on the internet? Are those measures commensurate with the size of the problem? I'm asking seriously.

On a previous HN submission [1] it's about 0.06%, more than I expeted.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28110159

Re: Messaging and chat control

#80

Post by herbst » Mon, Aug 09, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #65

herbst wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still no and far from a direct democracy.

> far from a direct democracy. And? Direct democracies are far worth than representative democracies in practically everyway. The Covid crisis should have made clear to all that people are not policies experts. Given than no country in the UE significantly uses direct democracy (referendums are pretty much never used and always devolve into a ridiculous race to who can say the most outrageous thing in front of the me…

You realize that Switzerland hasen't voted to wear masks and get restrictions? Having a direct democracy does not mean the gov can't make their own decisions at times.