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Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

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Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#61

Post by mariusor »

prof-dr-ir wrote: post #55
mariusor wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pro cycling is already a pretty dangerous sport, both on track and on the road. To mitigate those dangers a very important part is having a maneuverable bike. Recumbents are nothing of the sort. I doubt that any pro-cyclist wants the speed advantages of one if it means that cornering is more difficult, veering into dangerous.

There are also clear safety advantages to recumbents, like harder breaking without flipping over and an unobstructed view without sacrificing aerodynamics, so I do not think they should automatically be considered less safe. I am also pretty confident that the 'manoeuvrability' disadvantage is completely irrelevant for any individual track event. And do you think that it would be an important factor for time trials?

Flipping over because of hard braking is not something that happens in pro-cycling.

[edit] And yes, for time trials recumbents would be nice, but already time-trial bikes are pretty different and unsafe, I don't think the UCI would allow even more risk.

Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#62

Post by tromp »

amarant wrote: post #56

The idea of "freeform" sports competition is interesting. It shouldn't be a replacement but rather a addition to current sports. By freeform here I mean that you remove most of the rules. For example for biking you could allow whatever vehicle the competitors choose so long as it is powered entirely by the cyclist. Not sure what a reasonable "freeform" ruleset would be for javelin, at some point javelins stop being j…

> For example for biking you could allow whatever vehicle the competitors choose so long as it is powered entirely by the cyclist.

The World Human Powered Vehicle Association [1] oversees such competition, on land, in water, and even in the air [2].

[1] http://www.whpva.org/

[2] http://www.whpva.org/hpv.html

Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#63

Post by brainwad »

SilverRed wrote: post #43
prof-dr-ir wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cycling is actually another notorious example of a sport where the rules are holding back significant innovation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recumbent_bicycle

The rules are in place not to hold back speed, but to protect the image of cycling. A recumbent may be faster but it does not look like a bicycle to the average person and changes the image of the sport. Things like better shifters, lighter frames (within reason) more aero parts (within reason) are still allowed.

> lighter frames (within reason)

The UCI's 6.8kg weight limit is much higher than what is achievable with modern materials. So much so that there are frame builders who can build you an "illegal" bike made out of _steel_: https://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/outlaw/outlaw-main.html

Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#64

Post by hoseja »

nl wrote: post #47
Clewza313 wrote: post #3

Javelin is a bit of an outlier in the Olympics in that throws today are nowhere near the records, even after the changes discussed in the article. The winning throw this year was 87.58m, with only one other competitor managing even 86m. The world record, dating from 1996, is 98.48m , a full 10 meters and then some longer. Germany's Vetter, the one modern javelin thrower who has come within striking distance of that (…

> Javelin is a bit of an outlier in the Olympics in that throws today are nowhere near the records, even after the changes discussed in the article. This isn't true. There are 10 different athletes who have thrown within 7m of the world record[1] and Johannes Vetter has thrown over 94m 4 times[2]. > So why are we so much worse than 25 years ago? We aren't > The obvious explanation would doping. Zelezy was a freak - a…

Železný had a completely different revolutionary technique, hence his success.

Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#65

Post by nl »

hoseja wrote: post #64
nl wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Javelin is a bit of an outlier in the Olympics in that throws today are nowhere near the records, even after the changes discussed in the article. This isn't true. There are 10 different athletes who have thrown within 7m of the world record[1] and Johannes Vetter has thrown over 94m 4 times[2]. > So why are we so much worse than 25 years ago? We aren't > The obvious explanation would doping. Zelezy was a freak - a…

Železný had a completely different revolutionary technique, hence his success.

It's more than that though. Others have emulated his technique but he's still better.

One day his record will be broken. But the density of his high performing throws will always be amazing.

Sergey Bubbka is perhaps the closest analogy, although his record was recently - finally - broken.

Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#66

Post by getlawgdon »

yathern wrote: post #2

The article title might seem to suggest we have evidence that cavemen were could throw further than our best Olympic athletes... Instead, the article content is bemoaning that we have a standardized javelin that isn't as far-throwing as can be. Thus, the world record javelin toss may never be beaten. Yes, the permanent world record is a little unfortunate. But it has nothing to do with how cavemen would throw. Standa…

Hohn's throw is not the world record and hasn't been for decades.

Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#67

Post by Y_Y »

prof-dr-ir wrote: post #33
londgine wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

swimming technique and bicycle technically have improved a lot and all of the grading sports (gymnastics, diving) are constantly being changed since they were introduced into the Olympics. That is why so many of those records could be beaten. However it looks like Olympic archery does not allow a compound bow. I guess every sport decides if they want innovation or not.

Cycling is actually another notorious example of a sport where the rules are holding back significant innovation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recumbent_bicycle

Even something like a small faring, like the little plastic windshield on a motorbike should increase speed. One concern though, is that it would mitigate the advantage of drafting and totally change the strategy of cycling as it exists today (eg. re. the pelotón and breakaways).

Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#68

Post by Mikeb85 »

getlawgdon wrote: post #66
yathern wrote: post #2

The article title might seem to suggest we have evidence that cavemen were could throw further than our best Olympic athletes... Instead, the article content is bemoaning that we have a standardized javelin that isn't as far-throwing as can be. Thus, the world record javelin toss may never be beaten. Yes, the permanent world record is a little unfortunate. But it has nothing to do with how cavemen would throw. Standa…

Hohn's throw is not the world record and hasn't been for decades.

Because they reset the records to reflect the redesigned javelins. The current world record is ~6 metres less than Hohn's throw...

Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#69

Post by tk75x »

pseudo0 wrote: post #34
decker wrote: post #14

I'm surprised the article didn't mention the atlatl which would have been the true historic answer to "how far did cavemen throw spears?" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower

It does mention the ankyle, a leather strap that served a similar purpose by increasing the effective length of the throwing arm. I guess some cavemen used ankyles and others used atlatls?

"booster in the form of a leather thong, called an ankyle, that would set the javelin spinning, getting it to fly further."

Sounds like they just used it to wrap around the javelin to give it a spin like you would a spinning top with a string.

Re: Embarrassed by your Olympic javelin: did cavemen do it better? (2012)

#70

Post by pseudo0 »

tk75x wrote: post #69
pseudo0 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does mention the ankyle, a leather strap that served a similar purpose by increasing the effective length of the throwing arm. I guess some cavemen used ankyles and others used atlatls?

"booster in the form of a leather thong, called an ankyle, that would set the javelin spinning, getting it to fly further." Sounds like they just used it to wrap around the javelin to give it a spin like you would a spinning top with a string.

Neat, that does make more sense actually. Pretty impressive that the spin from a piece of leather would add 58% to the flight distance though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amentum

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