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Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

bombthrower.com

121–130 of 264 posts

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anti-vaxxers just hurt themselves, there wouldn't be nearly as much animosity around these issues. They pose a legitimate risk to other people. Not just through direct infection of other people, but by offering themselves up as a breeding ground for more effective versions of the virus.

> They pose a legitimate risk to other people. This is not true, any more than it is for vaccinated people. Viruses will still spread through a fully-vaccinated population, and they will still mutate in a fully-vaccinated population. The CDC released a report [1] showing proportional numbers of cases coming from fully vaccinated people (74% of cases against 69% of the population fully vaccinated). Treating people who…

The CDC study gives some credence to your theory but your conclusion is by all evidence wrong. It shows nothing about the transmissibility of vaccinated people who test positive. It also disregards previous evidence before the delta variant that vaccinations widely prevented positive tests. So there is SOME effect there. Taking a study that says “there’s definitely some chance of transmission” and making the conclusion “there’s no difference” only happens due to your predetermined conclusion. A real look at the actual body of evidence on vaccines necessarily draws different conclusions.

One need only look at the overlay of cases and vaccination rates across different US states to show you’re just flat out wrong.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They pose a legitimate risk to other people. This is not true, any more than it is for vaccinated people. Viruses will still spread through a fully-vaccinated population, and they will still mutate in a fully-vaccinated population. The CDC released a report [1] showing proportional numbers of cases coming from fully vaccinated people (74% of cases against 69% of the population fully vaccinated). Treating people who…

The CDC study gives some credence to your theory but your conclusion is by all evidence wrong. It shows nothing about the transmissibility of vaccinated people who test positive. It also disregards previous evidence before the delta variant that vaccinations widely prevented positive tests. So there is SOME effect there. Taking a study that says “there’s definitely some chance of transmission” and making the conclusi…

Most of what you say is correct, but saying absolutely that unvaccinated people are endangering other people and vaccinated people are not is also false.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#123
James Charles, a very popular individual on Twitter, has been cancelled about 5 times. Guess what? They're still there. That's because "Cancel Culture" is largely made up by talking heads. Very few people actually get "cancelled", and when they do, it's not because of posts on Twitter by themselves.

Youtube houses plenty of conspirators, right wing news, gun channels, and they're monetized. Not only that, but youtube comment sections are notorious for being inline with "conservative" views.

Some gun channels have been demonitized. Not because Youtube doesn't want the money, but because Google doesn't control what advertisers do. In one of the demonitization dramas it was revelead that Youtube as a company would stop generating revenue if a big advertiser like Pepsi or Disney stopped doing business with Youtube.

If you want to see "cancelling" how about the crowds of hate that target minority groups with significant harassment? Why is online canceling from Twitter talked about, but not actual real life militia groups and violent groups that gather to kill transgender individuals? One of those actually harms people.

Do you see these "cancellers" showing up to city council meetings, forming actual physical protests? Nope. Everyone is actually quite free to ignore it. The only time things change is when those in positions of power decide to change it. They make those changes not on the outrage on Twitter, but on their own personal beliefs on whom they want to do business with.

Ontop of this, "cancel culture" can be translated to "protest culture". Somehow critisizing and stopping business with people is "cancelling", and not "protest" now?

>No tech company should be enforcing their Terms of Service based on what they think their users have done or might do off of their own platforms. Yet Twitter, Facebook, Patreon and who knows who else do that.

Reworded: No individual should be enforcing their morals based on what they think someone has done or might do when not next to them.

These "I should be able to say anything I want on someone elses platform" is uniquely american privledge talking. If Youtube, or Twitter, or Facebook allowed whatever people want, guess what? They'd be regulated tomorrow to not allow it. Words actually do have harm, and words do not inherently have 1st ammendment protections.

There are already plenty of misinformed people whom want a "repeal of 230". These companies have both a moral and financial responsibility to enforce their terms of service.

>A mailer company like Mailchimp has no business even parsing the content of their paying clients, let alone summarily judging whether it is misinformation or not. Mail providers should care about two things and two things only:

Yes, they do. They have to parse them for illegal content, and then they have to parse for content that might have their services used in ways that harm others. Disinformation can easily be harmful, and a company like Mailchimp does not want to be implicated in it regardless of 230 protections or not.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#124
post #91

I'm not going to comment on the author's credibility or overall quality of his arguments. However, I think he brings up a very important point: who gets to decide what's misinformation? * Private organizations are run by fallible humans, chasing money and reduced liability * Governments lie. If you don't believe me, read any history book * Scientists are not a spherical mass floating in a vacuum with a unified opinio…

OK, but, we already have social/legal/cultural norms for deciding what thoughts are bad and what thoughts are good. Here are some things I can't do via Mailchimp for either legal or cultural reasons (see also https://mailchimp.com/legal/acceptable_use/ ): - Advertise pornography - Plan attacks against the United States government - Advertise medical cures that the government doesn't approve of - Sell counterfeit prod…

They are not thoughts as sibling mentioned.

If you think any of these things in your own mind but don't take any action on it that is perfectly ok and carries no legal risk.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#125
post #91

I'm not going to comment on the author's credibility or overall quality of his arguments. However, I think he brings up a very important point: who gets to decide what's misinformation? * Private organizations are run by fallible humans, chasing money and reduced liability * Governments lie. If you don't believe me, read any history book * Scientists are not a spherical mass floating in a vacuum with a unified opinio…

OK, but, we already have social/legal/cultural norms for deciding what thoughts are bad and what thoughts are good. Here are some things I can't do via Mailchimp for either legal or cultural reasons (see also https://mailchimp.com/legal/acceptable_use/ ): - Advertise pornography - Plan attacks against the United States government - Advertise medical cures that the government doesn't approve of - Sell counterfeit prod…

Other than advertising (legal) pornography, all of those are actual violations of the law, at least in the United States.

Clearly MailChimp (or any other service) can't knowingly allow their platform to be used to violate the law, or they would be held accountable.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#126

I'm not going to comment on the author's credibility or overall quality of his arguments. However, I think he brings up a very important point: who gets to decide what's misinformation? * Private organizations are run by fallible humans, chasing money and reduced liability * Governments lie. If you don't believe me, read any history book * Scientists are not a spherical mass floating in a vacuum with a unified opinio…

Who gets to decide who goes to jail? All of the same fallibility arguments apply.

Ideally? A jury of your peers supported by a system that at least purports to provide checks and balances against the system being dominated by any single person or groups' judgement.

If factual veracity faced a similar system that tries to balance the needs and desires of all participants, then censoring misinformation would be a lot more palatable (and would still, like our justice system, often be wrong.) The current system of supressing misinformation has none of the check and balances contained in the legal system and adding those in would do a great deal to facilitate trust in that system.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#127

Not sure if there's a more eloquent name for these kinds of "throw enough shit and hope some of it sticks" arguments but the article is very confused, from claiming ad hominem attacks are as bad as racism, to ranting about millenials and throwing in WMD's in Iraq for good measure. The actual key issue is somewhere in the middle of that article: > "When tech companies take it upon themselves to arbitrate what is or is…

> Unless someone explains to me, in plain English, why we ought to abolish the very important freedom of deciding for themselves who and how private entities do business with

Just to set some parameters here, you would be fine with, say, a landlord refusing to rent an apartment to a black person?

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with fissile material is the potential for hurting others. Stopping hurt of others is a reasonable function of government. Legal adults, however, have a fundamental right to hurt themselves. Yes, I know there are grey areas.

If anti-vaxxers just hurt themselves, there wouldn't be nearly as much animosity around these issues. They pose a legitimate risk to other people. Not just through direct infection of other people, but by offering themselves up as a breeding ground for more effective versions of the virus.

This is exactly why I disagree with everyone who argues it’s an issue of personal freedom.

You may have the personal freedom to get drunk—that doesn’t give you the freedom to drive around while under the influence and you endanger everyone else on the road.

The choice to be vaccinated or not is not a choice that affects merely the individual; its consequences affect communities. Regardless of whether it is valid or not to refuse vaccination, it is not solely within the realm of personal freedom and should not be treated that way.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most evil in the world is perpetrated not by evil people, but by people with good intentions who believe they know what is best for others, and believe that justifies forcing it on those others. > So, who gets to decide? Each individual gets to decide for themselves.

>Most evil in the world is perpetrated not by evil people, but by people with good intentions who believe they know what is best for others, and believe that justifies forcing it on those others. Other way around. Evil would convince you that leaded gasoline is fine, and that "good intentions" of regulating lead out of gas are evil because government power.

The architects of the really big atrocities, the holocausts, genocides and purges, argued them necessary for the greater good.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#130
post #88

Not sure if there's a more eloquent name for these kinds of "throw enough shit and hope some of it sticks" arguments but the article is very confused, from claiming ad hominem attacks are as bad as racism, to ranting about millenials and throwing in WMD's in Iraq for good measure. The actual key issue is somewhere in the middle of that article: > "When tech companies take it upon themselves to arbitrate what is or is…

> Unless someone explains to me, in plain English, why we ought to abolish the very important freedom of deciding for themselves who and how private entities do business with Not a lawyer, but I wonder if the Commerce Clause and Necessary and Proper clause give regulatory power to the government under the guise of promoting the general welfare. After all, this has been applied to commodities in the past, even when sa…

> In plain English, there’s precedent in the constitution and law for the government to regulate business if it promotes the general welfare.

There are a lot of things that "private entities" aren't allowed to do when doing business with the public in the United States.

They can't discriminate based on race, or religion, or national origin, or handicaps, or (in civilized areas) sexual orientation.

It wasn't always that way. At one time all of those things were perfectly legal. But we, as a society, after a great deal of argument (sometimes contentious) decided that they were wrong and changed the laws to prohibit those things.

We're having essentially the same arguments about online speech right now.

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