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Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

bombthrower.com

81–90 of 264 posts

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who gets to decide who goes to jail? All of the same fallibility arguments apply.

Yes, I agree. My arguments extend to the law too. Previously, you could've gone to jail for being black or having a beer. Women got to vote in 1920. I personally follow the law so I don't go to jail, since historically it has been made by idiots.

I think the better answer is not “whom” but “what process”.

People will always be fallible. Processes, however, can layer checks and balances in a way that people often can’t. Processes are also easier to change than people in my experience.

Processes certainly aren’t perfect but considering your examples are past tense, they can tend to arc towards “more perfect.”

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#82

sometimes I wonder how people and politicians would react to a user-friendly decentralized and distributed social network with strong crypto in the right places and no hierarchy. if such a thing were ever made, it would be very difficult to monitor or moderate.

Tor?

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#83
post #23

The title's been editorialized: Actual title is "When dissent is misinformation, fallacies become facts"

I think the title is distasteful, but the title tag of the article matches the hn title and is also the first title displayed above the fold (on a mobile browser, at least).

Good catch.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#84

Not sure if there's a more eloquent name for these kinds of "throw enough shit and hope some of it sticks" arguments but the article is very confused, from claiming ad hominem attacks are as bad as racism, to ranting about millenials and throwing in WMD's in Iraq for good measure. The actual key issue is somewhere in the middle of that article: > "When tech companies take it upon themselves to arbitrate what is or is…

Regulation of private companies is sane and normal, there is no need to appeal to their inherent freedoms and such, everyone should be on the same page about that. If you ideologically believe that no regulation should ever be imposed on a company, or individual, then take that idea to where it goes logically. Add problems like ecology, climate, transportation, and yes: control over information. The problem is rather…

Regulation of private companies is very sane and normal, I never said anything to the contrary. But yes there is a need to appeal to our fundamental freedoms apparently because you still need to actually justify and make a coherent argument why a given piece of regulation or limitation of freedom is reasonable, rather than just being mad that you got kicked off Twitter.

It's very important to distinguish between the actual right you have, which is that nobody should be able to compel you to speak, or how to speak, which is a right that in this case Mailchimp has, and the complete reversal of this, namely forcing private entities to host the speech of others, and have the government coerce platforms on behalf of third parties.

The author wants nothing less than a complete reversal on how we treat association and speech on the grounds that in his perception, 'purple haired millenials' run a business in a way that he doesn't approve of.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#85

Not sure if there's a more eloquent name for these kinds of "throw enough shit and hope some of it sticks" arguments but the article is very confused, from claiming ad hominem attacks are as bad as racism, to ranting about millenials and throwing in WMD's in Iraq for good measure. The actual key issue is somewhere in the middle of that article: > "When tech companies take it upon themselves to arbitrate what is or is…

If I wanted to and could find the funds, would I in practice (as opposed to just in theory) be legally allowed to create my own financial services organization that would provide financial services like payment processing and banking to people who have been banned by other financial services providers for their theoretically legally protected speech? Honest question - I do not know the answer.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#86

Not sure if there's a more eloquent name for these kinds of "throw enough shit and hope some of it sticks" arguments but the article is very confused, from claiming ad hominem attacks are as bad as racism, to ranting about millenials and throwing in WMD's in Iraq for good measure. The actual key issue is somewhere in the middle of that article: > "When tech companies take it upon themselves to arbitrate what is or is…

Regulation of private companies is sane and normal, there is no need to appeal to their inherent freedoms and such, everyone should be on the same page about that. If you ideologically believe that no regulation should ever be imposed on a company, or individual, then take that idea to where it goes logically. Add problems like ecology, climate, transportation, and yes: control over information. The problem is rather…

There is a simple, straightforward answer here - prevent companies from amassing such power in the first place.

It is far more obvious to me that there is an inherent right to choose whom you do business with and whom you don't than that there is an inherent right to have a single corporate entity employing unbounded numbers of employees and making unbounded amounts of money. The individual person can buy and sell on their own, without the government; the corporate entity only really works because it is recognized by the government.

To be clear, I'm not claiming that regulations are illegitimate. We do regulate, say, the individual farmer to make sure they're selling actual milk and not melamine. We do regulate the individual storekeeper to obligate them not to discriminate on race. But those regulations are all very measured and designed to solve specific problems (ultimately - protecting those who are even weaker than the individual businessperson).

Mailchimp is not some tech titan. They do not have more political power than any functional government. They are in no sense a monopoly in their industry, and they have exactly one industry, unlike the usual juggernauts that come up here. Calling them "Big Tech" is a clear example of the terrible slippery slope of adding regulations about obligating companies to do business vs. regulating their accrual of power, if that's the real problem.

Any regulation that would apply to Mailchimp would - if it's going to be effective - also have to apply to a startup that wants to be in the same industry. (It may not apply immediately, but it will certainly apply to the startup's medium-term goals, and thus affect its profitability.) If you just want to regulate Google and Facebook, I could almost believe that, but if "Big Tech" includes Mailchimp, who doesn't it include?

What we'll end up with is a system where anyone who wants to do business must have their business plan approved by Big Government, and where a professional specialization in complying with those regulations arises, and where there's a nice revolving door between implementing and enforcing them, and where Google continues to hold more political power than several countries and can engage in regulatory capture. It's hard to imagine that this aligns with the political desires of anyone except the current leadership at Big Tech. (Even the aspirational leadership of the next generation of Big Tech will find themselves shut out by this regulatory regime.)

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#87
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree. My arguments extend to the law too. Previously, you could've gone to jail for being black or having a beer. Women got to vote in 1920. I personally follow the law so I don't go to jail, since historically it has been made by idiots.

I think the better answer is not “whom” but “what process”. People will always be fallible. Processes, however, can layer checks and balances in a way that people often can’t. Processes are also easier to change than people in my experience. Processes certainly aren’t perfect but considering your examples are past tense, they can tend to arc towards “more perfect.”

I like this idea. Perhaps I'm committing the same fallacy that the Romans did around the fall of the Republic. The prevailing idea was that their problems were caused by a "failure of Roman morals", rather than by a failure of their system, even as they realized the inevitability of their situation and tried to enact changes.

> Processes certainly aren’t perfect but considering your examples are past tense, they can tend to arc towards “more perfect.”

Agreed. My use of the past was to illustrate a basic truth: given the big (colossal) failures of the past, is it more likely we have largely found the truth, or that we are still very far away from it? It's impossible to know of course. That said, the amount of people who will claim their truth is ultimate and all of who do not see it their way must be idiots is staggering. It's human nature though, I literally did that one comment above.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#88

Not sure if there's a more eloquent name for these kinds of "throw enough shit and hope some of it sticks" arguments but the article is very confused, from claiming ad hominem attacks are as bad as racism, to ranting about millenials and throwing in WMD's in Iraq for good measure. The actual key issue is somewhere in the middle of that article: > "When tech companies take it upon themselves to arbitrate what is or is…

>Unless someone explains to me, in plain English, why we ought to abolish the very important freedom of deciding for themselves who and how private entities do business with

Not a lawyer, but I wonder if the Commerce Clause and Necessary and Proper clause give regulatory power to the government under the guise of promoting the general welfare. After all, this has been applied to commodities in the past, even when said commodities weren’t even used in trade/commerce.

In plain English, there’s precedent in the constitution and law for the government to regulate business if it promotes the general welfare.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#89
By like the second sentence I was able to deduce pretty much most of what this guy was going to complain about and what side he was on every issue.

I do miss the days before "big tech" and social media when every asshole with half an opinion wasn't given a bullhorn to shout it from the rooftops as if they had something worthwhile to say.

When you are complaining about the Associated Press, maybe take a step back and consider whether or not you're just wrong.

Because the Associated Press is one of the most milquetoast, boring, middle-of-the-road, non-opinion-giving, dry ass, plain organizations out there. They really don't give a shit. They report on things so other newspapers can run the story.

And it seems like all he wants to do is commit the fallacy fallacy. He thinks by saying something is a fallacy, that makes them wrong. It doesn't.

Not to mention, the authorities people are "appealing" to are experts in this field. Not to mention, we can turn that "appeal to authority" around on Ivermectin as well. He's just pimping it because "a doctor said so". And when you point that out, they'll point out why we should blah blah blah. But that's the rub. It's something they want you to do for them, but won't do for you. No one is listening to these people simply because they're in charge, but because they're proven experts in their field.

And so on, with the rest. When he's not just completely misrepresenting a situation to claim something is fallacious when it's not.

Re: Big Tech are supposed to be the plumbers, not patricians of internet discourse

#90

I'm not going to comment on the author's credibility or overall quality of his arguments. However, I think he brings up a very important point: who gets to decide what's misinformation? * Private organizations are run by fallible humans, chasing money and reduced liability * Governments lie. If you don't believe me, read any history book * Scientists are not a spherical mass floating in a vacuum with a unified opinio…

Most evil in the world is perpetrated not by evil people, but by people with good intentions who believe they know what is best for others, and believe that justifies forcing it on those others.

> So, who gets to decide?

Each individual gets to decide for themselves.

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