Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection • Hacker News Board

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#41

Post by nickthemagicman » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #15

wpasc wrote: post #2

Can any of the findings from the properties of how natural immunity works be guided in to future COVID 19 vaccines? Given how the pharma companies are examining anti-body half life, exploring booster shots, and considering vaccinations against variants (like lambda), can any of the learnings go into a more durable, more broad vaccine?

Vaccine immunity IS "natural" immunity. It works the same way, by exposing the body's immune system to virus components such that they product a response. The only difference is that with a vaccine those components don't add up to a viable organism. But yes: expect newer vaccines tailored to currently-circulating strains to appear; the existing mRNA vaccines produce copies of the spike protein sequenced more than a y…

How is an mRNA strand that encode for a single very specific protein on a virus the same as the entire virus?

The antibody memory made from a Natural Infection seems like it would be much richer and have much more variety than the mRNA vaccine.

I would imagine the attenuated virus vaccine would be closer to Natural immunity.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#42

Post by SideburnsOfDoom » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

Not to disagree with the effectiveness of immunity gained by getting Covid-19, but also:

"The evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants ... compared to antibodies acquired from an infection."

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...

"Vaccination offers longer, stronger immunity"

https://www.jhsph.edu/covid-19/articles/why-covid-19-vaccine...

"Why a vaccine can provide better immunity than an actual infection"

https://theconversation.com/why-a-vaccine-can-provide-better...

"Why You Need to Get Vaccinated Even If You’ve Already Had COVID-19"

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/why-you-need-to-get-v...

And also, vaccination is a much, much safer way to get antibodies, than via getting sick with Covid-19.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#43

Post by echelon » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

015a wrote: post #19

Its important to keep studies like this in mind when talking with people who refuse to take the vaccine because they "already had COVID". In a very real sense, if natural antibodies are durable, persistent, and effective; the vaccine is an unnecessary medical procedure. Doctors would not cut off your legs for no reason; that would be unethical. The vaccine is a medical procedure like any other; if the benefit is ques…

The vaccine is less dangerous than flying in an airplane. It can boost your immunity even further. (Every boost to immune recognition, recruitment, and proliferation decreases the odds of infection and spread. You need to understand how the system works, and that takes at least three months of study.)

This anti-science meme is turning us into yelling cavemen.

If you don't understand the science, please educate yourself before speaking out against it.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#44

Post by BrianOnHN » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:24 PM UTC

briefcomment wrote: post #36

IAmGraydon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing it to an amputation is beyond ridiculous. If you have to make leaps of logic like this, you know your argument is extremely weak.

Ok, doctors would not administer steroids for long term use for minor pain, that would be unethical and highly dangerous (except they do, from first hand experience)

Or prescribe antibiotics for potentially viral infections (they do...)

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#45

Post by 542458 » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

mercora wrote: post #37

015a wrote: post #19

Its important to keep studies like this in mind when talking with people who refuse to take the vaccine because they "already had COVID". In a very real sense, if natural antibodies are durable, persistent, and effective; the vaccine is an unnecessary medical procedure. Doctors would not cut off your legs for no reason; that would be unethical. The vaccine is a medical procedure like any other; if the benefit is ques…

how easy is it to test for these antibodies for a layman? could people actually easily get tested prior to considering a vaccination?

The test is easy, but has a relatively high false positive rate. It also may use up lab resources that could be put to other uses.

The other wrinkle (and possibly the most important one) is that we don’t want to create a system where antivaxxers have an incentive to deliberately infect themselves and/or others.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#46

Post by briefcomment » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

mercora wrote: post #37

015a wrote: post #19

Its important to keep studies like this in mind when talking with people who refuse to take the vaccine because they "already had COVID". In a very real sense, if natural antibodies are durable, persistent, and effective; the vaccine is an unnecessary medical procedure. Doctors would not cut off your legs for no reason; that would be unethical. The vaccine is a medical procedure like any other; if the benefit is ques…

how easy is it to test for these antibodies for a layman? could people actually easily get tested prior to considering a vaccination?

It's available and getting cheaper pretty quickly. Hopefully others can chime in, seems like a promising path to take.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#47

Post by mbgerring » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

“Acquiring” natural immunity also has the following side effects at a much higher rate than the vaccine:

- Death

- Hospitalization

- Chronic illness, which can include long-term neurological impairment

I feel like it’s important to keep that in mind if you’re either advocating “natural immunity” as a public health strategy, or considering it a personal strategy.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#48

Post by rcpt » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

orbifold wrote: post #27

hprotagonist wrote: post #6

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03738-2 vaccines also produce durable and persistent immune responses. Primary antibody titers wane, but the system itself remembers and can regenerate them when challenged. see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28107714 for contra "but muh boosters", which i suspect is what's helping me collect downvotes.

Not really the anti-body count decays more quickly compared to that of a natural infection and does so dramatically especially for older people: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... . This is the underlying reason that there is talk of boosters.

Older people has to have some sample bias since those without strong immune systems died.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#49

Post by hprotagonist » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #33

hprotagonist wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

we still need the primary antibody count up high, because we’re still in a pandemic, thus the desire for boosters. in both vaccine induced and survivor induced immune responses, long term immune systems come online to store a memory of the disease so that on future challenge, more of those antibodies will be produced by people fairly rapidly after future exposure, even when your blood stream isn’t full of covid antib…

Anitbodies fade after several months. The booster shots are being touted for every 12 months or so. Not sure your statement tracks.

don't conflate primary antibodies with b-cells.

You and I aren't walking around with bloodstreams full of anti-measles antibodies, despite being vaccinated in infancy: but you can bet that you will be if you encounter a bunch of measles in the wild, in relatively short order.

The question is: are the covid vaccines like tetanus vaccines or like measles vaccines? So far, the evidence points to the latter, but the desire for a booster anyway is driven by the fact that SARS-CoV-2 is a pandemic; neither tetanus nor measles are.

Re: Longitudinal analysis shows durable immune memory after SARS-CoV-2 infection

#50

Post by deanclatworthy » Sun, Aug 08, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

015a wrote: post #19

Its important to keep studies like this in mind when talking with people who refuse to take the vaccine because they "already had COVID". In a very real sense, if natural antibodies are durable, persistent, and effective; the vaccine is an unnecessary medical procedure. Doctors would not cut off your legs for no reason; that would be unethical. The vaccine is a medical procedure like any other; if the benefit is ques…

As far I’m aware this is an American thing. I’m from Finland (no vaccine pass yet) but travelling in Germany/Austria right now. They have the concept of 3G (don’t ask me to translate) but basically you can’t eat, drink or stay anywhere without either a vaccine, recovery or negative test.

There is a pop up antigen test facility about 100m from the restaurant where anyone can go get a quick negative result and go do their thing for a set period of time. I’m conflicted on this given the inaccuracy of the antigen tests.

I’m currently sat in a restaurant typing this message, and have been served food and drink and yet to be asked to verify my EU certificate of vaccination. So your mileage may vary.