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In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

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Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#341

Post by matwood »

feross wrote: post #61
sumeno wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not built to break end-to-end encryption because photos in iCloud aren't end-to-end encrypted https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

Then ask yourself why they shipped this scanning on the client-side. This is the first step towards normalizing client-side scanning of encrypted content across the entire device .

I disagree. I think it's the first step towards enabling e2ee on iCloud photos. This system will replace the server side CSAM they have done for years.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#342

Post by xvf22 »

mpalmer wrote: post #74
RavlaAlvar wrote: post #73

I really don’t understand why apple is doing this. What point are they trying to score and from whom ? Do they think implementing a spyware in iPhone would boost sales? Or does it bring revenue from charging government agency to use this feature? I just don’t get it.

Could be throwing a bone to politicians who say E2E encryption protects criminals. Not saying I agree, but I could see this being a compromise on Apple's part.

And if that's the case how long until other things get added to the scan list given the precedent has been set.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#343

Post by matwood »

RavlaAlvar wrote: post #78
mpalmer wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be throwing a bone to politicians who say E2E encryption protects criminals. Not saying I agree, but I could see this being a compromise on Apple's part.

They can’t be this stupid, right? They should know this has huge security implications. I can’t see how it can be justified for some political brownie point.

Much more than brownie points. Apple et al all check CSAM on the server today. If Apple is wanting to announce further e2ee at the next iPhone event, moving a privacy protecting CSAM check to the client is how to stave off encryption destroying legislation.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#344

Post by hef19898 »

dijit wrote: post #331
hef19898 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that I think about it, is there any good, viable alternative for Windows 10 on a new ThinkPad? One that ideally is able to run MS Office (or at least Excel...)? Any recommendations regarding decent, and ideally user friendly, Linux versions?

I mean, the fact that our world exists on the back of proprietary formats (thus locking us into software) should be a bigger deal. "It should run microsoft office" is a difficult problem to solve and only serves to deeply entrench the big players. I'm aware that I've had this same criteria myself for choosing a new device (because: pragmatism) but I've come to just "accept" it. If I look a bit further away and remove…

Yeah, that's why I "choose" Windows and Office 365 for my own company. Now that this is over, and I have a new set of employer owned hardware for work, I can get rid of that for my private life. Hence Linux and I guess, LibreOffice. Once I have time I'll also quit Google's Android on my Pixel. I need time for that so, good thing is most of Steam works on Linux just fine. I'll do some digging first so if Linux on my X1 Extreme works just fine. I am not motivated enough to solve driver issues...

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#345

Post by jtc331 »

Cederfjard wrote: post #340
xyzzyz wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I learned anything in my lifetime, it’s that “slippery slope” is not, in fact, a fallacy at all. Rather, it’s a rule of thumb.

It is only a fallacy when it’s not backed up by solid reasoning. There are obviously slippery slopes. And sometimes they aren’t there, even though people claim they are. It’s a shame that some have been conditioned to immediately make the connection between the two.

It’s almost like that conditioning benefits someone.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#346

Post by tyingq »

speleding wrote: post #281
Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

> A cryptographic hash + file size combo is unlikely to have a false positive within our lifetime The chance of a "technical" false positive is tiny, but they need to look all false positives: If some joker sends you a lewd picture through WhatsApp, WhatsApp by default saves every picture to your photo library, then you are now on the naughty list. Good luck trying to explain yourself out of that one.

The context there was that a typical CSAM hash like PhotoDNA is NOT a cryptographic hash, but a perceptual one, which DOES have notable false positive issues.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#347

Post by jiggawatts »

Everyone, just relax. It's fine. The Apple corporation is just entering your home on a regular basis and rifling through your photo album. This is perfectly normal, because you might have pictures of 15 year old girls. Which you took when you were 16. But you're 18 now, so if you've upset the wrong people you can be locked up for life. Be glad you're not just quietly taken out the back and shot, like in some other countries.

We're more civilised here, you see? We just put you on a list. You can go about the rest of your life. It'll be a bit... shit, but at least you'll get to regret angering the rich and powerful.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#348

Post by bishoprook2 »

You know, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I mostly see a bunch of disingenuous logic from the pro-surveillance forces.

Being able to uniquely identify a picture via a hash and having a copy of that same picture at The Borg is essentially the same as sending a copy, it's a form of image compression.

Much hand-waving results as to the actual rules for pushing the data upstream, but that's just a detail..and a definable one at that.

It's probably best to view Apple products as privacy oriented to corporations not named 'Apple', but transparent to governments. That's probably enough for most people.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#349

Post by PenguinCoder »

JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #327
almostdigital wrote: post #10

A system on my phone where it has a list of bad files and a threshold on how many of those files are allowed. If the threshold is reached Apple can read them. Both the bad files list and threshold is controlled by Apple and is explicitly designed to be un-auditable... Honestly I would have been fine with Apple scanning my all photos after they are uploaded to iCloud but this is deeply disturbing

This is how I feel as well. I don’t use iCloud photos but if I did, sure scan them for CP, I don’t care. Maybe you will catch some bad guys that willingly gave you their photos. But scanning everyone’s phones is beyond creepy and feels like exactly what the fourth amendment is about. It’s British soldiers suddenly having the ability to search EVERY home in colonial America as often as they want. > Amendment 4. The ri…

Constitution applies between the government and you. Apple is not (knowingly) a government agency, they're a private business. Therefore the amendment doesn't apply to their actions. Vote with the wallet instead.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#350

Post by queuebert »

Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

Isn't perceptual hashing necessary for this application to prevent simple modifications (e.g. resizing, filters) from changing the signature?
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