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In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

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Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#301

Post by DavideNL »

First of all, i feel that saying “people don’t understand” is insulting.

Second, the fact that everyone is now a suspect by default (instead of targeting specific individuals), is a very concerning development.

Just imagine Tim Cook retiring and being replaced by someone like Donald Trump. All the tools are now in place to start misuse.

On the other hand, it seems they did built a great tool, preserving privacy while still scanning Photos locally. I just feel it’s wrong to use this on all (innocent) people.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#302

Post by matthewh806 »

jacquesm wrote: post #143
smnrchrds wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And HN's mistake is thinking any of this will matter. Apple only cares about money, always has, always will. And I'm willing to bet they are going to continue beating their revenue and profit record quarter after quarter. When their actions do not affect the one thing they care about, why should they care what anyone says?

Ah ok, so as long as it is profitable ethics don't matter. Got it.

Yes, unfortunately that seems to be the world we live in.

The parent poster is not advocating for profits over ethics - just pointing out the reality for companies like Apple etc

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#303

Post by axiosgunnar »

Could somebody go to

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/CSAM_Detection_Techni...

and then replace

- "National Center for Missing and Exploited Children“ with „the new Trump administration“

- „child pornography“ with „LGBT content“

to see what 2025 might look like?

(use „the new Clinton administration“ and „images of guns“ if you are conservative)

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#304

Post by sneak »

DavideNL wrote: post #301

First of all, i feel that saying “people don’t understand” is insulting. Second, the fact that everyone is now a suspect by default (instead of targeting specific individuals), is a very concerning development. Just imagine Tim Cook retiring and being replaced by someone like Donald Trump. All the tools are now in place to start misuse. On the other hand, it seems they did built a great tool, preserving privacy while…

The tools are already in place for misuse. iPhones autoupdate by default, so Apple can push new malicious privacy-invading software to your device at any time without your intervention.

Each update, even if done manually, re-enables autoupdate, requiring that you go turn it off.

Apple is really into being able to run whatever code they want on your device without your intervention.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#305

Post by praseodym »

an_account_name wrote: post #276
megous wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visual derivative is a preprocessed picture itself, and it's part of the "safety voucher". It may be grayscale and resized/normalized in other ways. Only apple knows exactly what it is. It's only a matter of time until internet trolls find a way to abuse this. The database is stored on user's devices, so someone downloading it and permuting innocuous images enough until they match the database, and then spreading the…

If they can do a manual review at all, then there isn’t end to end encryption anymore, so I’m missing what the point of client side scanning is.

Apple doesn't currently have end-to-end encryption for iCloud Photos either: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#306

Post by lovelyviking »

Someone1234 wrote: post #38

Apple's mistake is that they seemingly believe there is pushback because people misunderstand how it works. The reality is more nuanced: People understand exactly how it works, and how it works is that it is turn-key onboard spyware, that Apple pinky-swears isn't being used wrong today . For example if the scope/mission expands (e.g. foreign governments), suddenly you've created a drag-net for whatever "badness" is o…

>these features are part of an “important mission” for keeping children safe.

The other mistake is to think that removing privacy with longing effects on society [1] and thus attacking the very fabric of a free democratic society respecting human rights would not make children any safer. When they grow up they possibly would have to live in concentration camps or Chine-like regime. It is very safe, but not sure it is very pleasant.

It's about values. It should be absolutely illegal to install any spyware on personal device without warrant

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28084578

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28096948

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#307

Post by dijit »

sumeno wrote: post #45
bassman9000 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This 2021 swatting

You seem to be conflating the two systems. For the CSAM detection this wouldn't do anything at all because you aren't uploading it to iCloud. For the child iMessage system it would notify the parents, not law enforcement. It's nothing like swatting

> For the CSAM detection this wouldn't do anything at all because you aren't uploading it to iCloud.

The whole point of this change is that they will scan content "before" it hits iCloud. (the verbage says "before" as if there is going to certainly be an intent that it goes to iCloud but that's not a given at all, sounds like Apples marketing speak to "assume the sale" so to say).

CSAM scanning of photos uploaded iCloud photos has already been in place for quite some time.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#308

Post by itronitron »

xyzzyz wrote: post #257
ASalazarMX wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the slippery slope is not a fallacy, but the natural consequence of seeking more control. This feature can be horribly misused in the future, for example, to find people who have sent/received/downloaded Tiannanmen pictures, because instant messaging pictures can be automatically added to your albums. You can't trust a feature whose only impediment from being abused in the future is such pinky promise.

If I learned anything in my lifetime, it’s that “slippery slope” is not, in fact, a fallacy at all. Rather, it’s a rule of thumb.

And if the landscape is changing then the sliding has already started.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#309

Post by DavideNL »

sneak wrote: post #304
DavideNL wrote: post #301

First of all, i feel that saying “people don’t understand” is insulting. Second, the fact that everyone is now a suspect by default (instead of targeting specific individuals), is a very concerning development. Just imagine Tim Cook retiring and being replaced by someone like Donald Trump. All the tools are now in place to start misuse. On the other hand, it seems they did built a great tool, preserving privacy while…

The tools are already in place for misuse. iPhones autoupdate by default, so Apple can push new malicious privacy-invading software to your device at any time without your intervention. Each update, even if done manually, re-enables autoupdate, requiring that you go turn it off. Apple is really into being able to run whatever code they want on your device without your intervention.

Sure, but by that reasoning, any system that has updates is by definition 100% insecure, and nothing else matters anymore…

The world is not just black and white.

Re: In internal memo, Apple addresses concerns around new Photo scanning features

#310

Post by hef19898 »

ptero wrote: post #285
peakaboo wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep trading away privacy for convenience. We won't have any privacy left if we continue to go down that road. People need to start looking at these tech giants with extreme scepticism. Like we do if companies are from China. We need to think about our American companies the exact same way, and stop trusting them to care about our privacy.

> We won't have any privacy left if we continue to go down that road. If people look at today's state (phone movement tracking, voice capture, cameras and face ID, etc.) from the mental model of 30 years ago, they would see neither privacy nor freedom. At all. Sadly, it is not the case of preserving what we still have, if we want freedom and privacy we will have to reacquire them. And a lot of the price will have to…

Before that I thought about dumping Pixel phones for a iPhone. Now I gonna try out CalyxOS on my Pixel 2. Once I finally decided on an upgrade to a Pixel 5 I'll probably give GrapheneOS a shot. Hoping that makes a difference, otherwise it will a dumb phone again.
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