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Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

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Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#841

Post by remir »

fourthwaveska wrote: post #836
remir wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the line could be at: I made money in the US and benefited from being a US citizen, but now I pack my things and go live elsewhere so I can benefit from the wealth differential in that country and extract rent from people there.

Hmm. So it is OK for me to say make all of my money in San Francisco then go buy property in much poorer Detroit? Now what if about 1/3 of that income came from my wife who is from a poorer country than Spain?

I guess if a bunch of wealthy people came to Detroit and bought properties and extracted rent from much poorer citizens with less upward mobility and nearly no chance to own a property of them own, that would be the same problem.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#842

Post by david12345 »

beagle3 wrote: post #219
yardie wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 90% of investment firms These must be very small meat and potatoes investment firms then. They might not have a compliance department and might not be able to justify the salary of having someone tackle FATCA requirements. I, as an American abroad primarily used the big banks (HSBC, BNP, Barkleys) because its built in to the service.

In Israel (9m pop), non of the banks available to the general public (Poalim, Leumi, Discount, Iggud/Mizrahi) will let you do anything other than a checking account and a saving account. Perhaps a loan but definitely no holdings; and similarly no broker will either. They are not small. It just isn’t worth it to them financially so they don’t. There are est. 300k US tax payers in Israel, but while the profit is per-pe…

Yes, but at least you can still buy US ETF's unlike in the EU. And Interactive brokers has a bank account in Israel you can wire money into, so one can get by.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#843

Post by s1artibartfast »

fourthwaveska wrote: post #808
s1artibartfast wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Caring about your society, institutional values, and countrymen.

My life experiences have made me incapable of empathizing with this view. My fellow citizens have never had my back, and I disagree with most everything they hold dear, as they disagree with most everything about me. I don't hate America or its people, I'm just not that into them. Patriotic people love to tell others "If you don't love America, leave it". Well, as my patriotic act to those great patriotic Americans .…

Sounds like it was for the best. Are you happy with your new country? Any sense of patriotism there (using my definition)?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#844

Post by spiralx »

anticristi wrote: post #635
bee_rider wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From that article: "The wording of the statute is embarrassing. How can an alien renounce U.S. citizenship? In what capacity would said alien do so officially? One assumes that a court of law would find the language incoherent and unenforceable ... This is the way we legislate at 5 o'clock in the morning 4 days before adjournment." Nice to see lawmakers falling to the specter of trying to get that commit in for the n…

One could actually say they push code, although "code" in this context means law.

If you dig through legislation it begins to look like a Git repository, with patches adding and removing parts of the content and branches that if successful generate their own patches as well.

Legal documents aren't code, but they do share many of the same principles and constraints - GIGO applies to both programs and contracts...

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#846

Post by ReallyOldLurker »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184
mgbmtl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension, so having one residency is logical.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

Personal anecdote: my brother was robbed in Mexico of everything including shoes. He went to the embassy for assistance. He was give some McDonalds coupons and told to use them when he got across the border. He even asked them to check against police records, knowing that he had an outstanding misdemeanor warrant. No go. No help. At least one of the persons at the embassy was honest and told him that embassies only help government officials, rich, or public figures. Fortunately he eventually found a way to get in contact with us (much, much later). In the end the way to get back is to just try to push through a border gate so that you'll get arrested. Then they'll be forced to confirm your identity.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#847

Post by oblio »

depressedpanda wrote: post #423
oblio wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10% is a gross exaggeration, though. Romania has lower salaries than Poland, as far as I know, and in Romania as a senior engineer in a decent company you can get a total > compensation of €3.5k - €4k per month, that would be ~$4k - $4.8k per month, so ~$48k - ~58k. Again, net. And probably more since there are companies that give you RSUs/ESPPs, so you can go along for the ride. Not as many as in the US, obviously,…

I don't know if whether the numbers you quote for Romania are correct or not (Polish salaries for devs are not even remotely close to that), but a salary that nets you €4k/month after taxes is not very common in Sweden - which is considered a richer country than Romania.

The difference between Sweden and Romania is not between Swedish and Romanian software developers. It's between Swedish and Romanian janitors. The Swedish ones probably make 10x what the Romanian ones make. And most people in Romania are closer to the janitor salary wise, than to the software developer.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#848

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

ggggtez wrote: post #838
fourthwaveska wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure by these measures I'm rich, but I don't feel that way. Our current income isn't really indicative of the whole picture. Since I was diagnosed as Bi-Polar 20 years ago, I have averaged 2 months of unemployment per year, and just spent 13 months without income due to my inability to cope with the stress of the world. Today I'm rich. Tomorrow I could be living in a van for 6 months like I did after the 2001 bubble…

I think it's helpful to consider that just because you are upper class does not necessarily imply that you are rich. I know plenty of people with upper class hobbies. I couldn't say for sure if they are rich, but they certainly don't live a lifestyle that I was ever familiar with growing up. Even taking a year off to de-stress... Someone without financial means couldn't make those choices. And I've known bipolar peop…

> I'd never met anyone taking about buying a house in the Spanish hills until becoming a techie.

I'm still not sure that's the differentiating factor here. OP made clear their moral objections, and sketched out part of a picture in which what makes this possible is not so much "typical tech money", but possibly "having owned a home in the US for long enough".

I have extremely non-tech but upper-middle class friends who in the past have discussed buying entire villages in Spain and Italy (they can be had for as little as $2-300k on the low end. These are not people who ever made "a lot of money", but they have owned homes for long enough that if they sold their house, they'd have capital to put into such a move.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#849

Post by rolleiflex »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #821
rolleiflex wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and Turkey moved to nullify this by creating a system in which if you are otherwise a valid Turkish citizen that has to give up because of a requirement from a foreign country like this, you can get on a special status in which you cannot vote, but have all the other privileges of Turkish citizenship. That status is not citizenship in theory, but practically you have everything as usual, and can participate in t…

This sounds similar to the Overseas Citizen of India (OCI) card. Can any Indian nationals comment?

I think the main difference is that Turkey does not require you to relinquish your Turkish citizenship if you get another, while India does. In a way TRs system is entirely to help out with an issue a foreign country creates, while India’s is primarily an attempt to recover from an own goal — assuming you believe people having multiple citizenships is a good thing.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#850

Post by sumedh »

richwater wrote: post #535
sumedh wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> highest suicide rates of the developed world. If I am not mistaken most of those suicides are among the Maori people not the white people of NZ.

Yea thanks for clearing that up. The native people don't count.

No you should first understand the cause of the suicides before lumping them with the rest of the developed world.
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