Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#821

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

rolleiflex wrote: post #645

anticristi wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I heard rumours that this law is basically to put a thorn in the eye of Turkish immigrants minus what the EU does not allow. Is there any truth in this?

Yes, and Turkey moved to nullify this by creating a system in which if you are otherwise a valid Turkish citizen that has to give up because of a requirement from a foreign country like this, you can get on a special status in which you cannot vote, but have all the other privileges of Turkish citizenship. That status is not citizenship in theory, but practically you have everything as usual, and can participate in t…

This sounds similar to the Overseas Citizen of India (OCI) card. Can any Indian nationals comment?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#822

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

bakuninsbart wrote: post #793

markdown wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the current situation is a semi-failure WOuld you care to expand on that? I'm curious what in particular about the US immigrant culture you would like to see adopted, and what about the current German system prevents that culture from developing.

Sadly I can't find good polls on some of the things I want to talk about, so this has a bit of an anecdotal note. But I've been living in a majority turkish subdistrict for most of my life, and have many german-turkish friends, as well as friends and family teaching in schools with many turkish and arab descendant kids. But first some facts: "People with a migration background", which includes their children and chil…

@markdown: +9000 for this answer! I agree: It is very thoughtful.

I re-read this part a few times: >

At first blush, I think "Oh come on people, pick one side or the other!" Then I think again: Each one can be independently true. Taken as a whole, these opinions appear conflicted. This is the reality of large scale immigration: It is complex is any society.

When I think about immigration, I try to separate high-income/-education/-skill from the low- counterpart. Germany should be doing everything possible to attract the high side. It's a great place to raise a family.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#823

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 2:14 PM UTC

rsstack wrote: post #473

aarchi wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well Germany also requires that you surrender other citizenships when you get a German citizenship, unless you are a German dual citizen through ancestry.

Imprecise but not incorrect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_(o...

Also, I assume there is a special exception for Jewish families of German descent who were unfairly stripped of their nationality during the National Socialist period (early 1940s). There is a programme to help people re-gain their citizenship. I've read a few long-form jounalism articles (in English) about people who don't speak German and are not German residents applying under this programme.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#824

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 2:17 PM UTC

beezle wrote: post #602

bnralt wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Americans seem to believe that, but it doesn't actually seem to be the case. For instance, when Yemen was falling apart, countries like China, India, Pakistan, Russia, and Indonesia all worked hard to evacuate their citizens, many using their military to do so[1]. The U.S. response was to tell American citizens they were on their own[2]. The U.S. embassy even recommended that Americans seek assistance from India…

The US is also very good at issuing travel warnings that are very explicit about the risks [1] I am not aware of the DoS ever going from 'its all ok' to 'see ya, y'all on your own now!' Anyone that was in Yemen prior to 2/15 had (or should have) a very good idea of where things were going. [1] https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/...

UK embassies are also quite good about publishing updates on their websites.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#825

Post by rsstack » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #823

rsstack wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imprecise but not incorrect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Dual_(o...

Also, I assume there is a special exception for Jewish families of German descent who were unfairly stripped of their nationality during the National Socialist period (early 1940s). There is a programme to help people re-gain their citizenship. I've read a few long-form jounalism articles (in English) about people who don't speak German and are not German residents applying under this programme.

Pretty much anyone whose citizenship was revoked by the Nazi government, or descendants of those victims who would have had citizenship today had it not been for the Nazi government, can apply to have the citizenship reinstated. Numerically it's likely mostly Jewish families in Israel and the US, but it applies to all of the Nazis' German victims.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law#Victims...

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#826

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

pacomerh wrote: post #633

BeetleB wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are not allowed to open financial accounts for investments in the country you are living in because they do not want to have information sent to the IRS, you'll think differently. I know at least one country that will not let you even open a bank account if you have a green card or US citizenship. Actually, even if you're a foreigner living in the US (student, H-1, etc), that country will not let you open a ba…

I don't understand how the IRS can know what you do in foreign banks

First hand experience (US citizen): When you open a bank account overseas, they ask you if you are subject to FACTA (US passport or green card). Then you are given a multi-lingual form that explains all about FACTA, and require you submit your passport (for scan/photocopy) and to sign a form acknowledging the bank will end your account details annually (at least!) to the US IRS. I confirm this is true multiple times -- different banks, different countries. Surprisingly, even ones where the service is 100% non-English (read/write/speak!), they will still bring out multi-linguage forms and do a bunch of pointing to confirm.

Funny story: Overseas, I can remember going through anti-money laundering training. The week after, I went to open a new bank account. When I told them I was a US citizen, the account rep said -- without missing a beat -- "Do you want to report?" Jeez. That question alone is probably enough to get that bank into trouble! Obviously, that person failed their own FACTA training...

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#827

Post by throwaway2037 » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #661

pacomerh wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how the IRS can know what you do in foreign banks

The IRS requires you to report all bank accounts you have in foreign countries when you file taxes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance... > FATCA also requires such persons to report their non-U.S. financial assets annually to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) on form 8938, which is in addition to the older and further redundant requirement to report them annually to the Financial Crimes En…

Find me a bank in 2021 that doesn't clear US dollars. That is the big gotcha. This is one of the ways that the long arm of the US Treasury applies force is by restricting US dollar clearing if any banks in a jurisdiction refuse to comply. Literally: They would say to a developing country: Get that local bank in order, or we will not allow any one in your country (central bank or businesses) to trade or clear any US dollar transactions. Remember: Most US dollars overseas move by SWIFT transactions.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#828

Post by charonn0 » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #786

charonn0 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It must be nice to have problems like that.

You don’t need to be rich to move out of the US.

Not according to the complaints here.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#829

Post by abroadsaver » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #369

lmilcin wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of assumptions. Maybe people no longer want to live in US and it is wealthy that have it easier to actually go through with this? Or maybe they actually live somewhere else and don't like paying their taxes TWICE. Almost every country in the world (except US) requires taxes based on residency, not citizenship. For example, being Pole, if I spend more than 180 days in Sweden, I now owe taxes in Sweden but no lon…

> For example, being Pole, if I spend more than 180 days in Sweden, I now owe taxes in Sweden but no longer owe them in Poland. That is because Poland recognizes that, while I am Polish citizen, I actually was Swedish resident during that tax year. And have an agreement with Sweden so that it is clear where I have to pay my taxes. The US has similar arrangements with many countries, and you are not doubly-taxed. You…

> The US has similar arrangements with many countries, and you are not doubly-taxed. You simply pay taxes at the highest rate of the two (US and ).

But do you see how punitive that is to US expats? It means that they never benefit from tax mitigation efforts in their resident country if the US has higher taxes on that. That, tax-wise, they are perpetually worse off than US residents and their local neighbors.

Think about the effect of this on small businesses (which are hardly alone in their troubles). Small businesses owned by US expats are at a perpetual disadvantage relative to local businesses because they can’t operate purely within the local tax environment. If the US introduces some poorly thought out regulation, like the GILTI tax, they are hit completely independently of the local competition through no fault of their own.

Besides, if the resident country decides to mitigate some local issue by lowering taxes, what business is that to the US? It’s criminal that it uses its own citizens to siphon off another country’s wealth.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#830

Post by grumblenum » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 3:43 PM UTC

fourthwaveska wrote: post #801

grumblenum wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It isnt about money, I am juwt ashamed to have an American passport and know my tax dollars are being spent on war and murder in the name of christ and oil profits. You know Bush isn't president anymore, right? That hasn't been a a popular (and I would say erroneous, even when it was popular) talking point for more than a decade. I do find it interesting that expatriation trends seem to pivot in years with president…

Yes Bush isn't president, but the failures and hatreds of the entire Bush family are still incredibly relevant today. If you don't believe that, look at the 10s of thousands of Afghans currently walking through Iran and Turkey to find refuge in Europe). When you're the leader of the most powerful nation in the world, your decisions outlast your position.

I think the refugees are motivated much more by the financial incentives those governments provide. They usually pass through multiple safe countries to get to places like Germany. A modernized Plantation of Ulster has been the policy of every Western government since the 60s.

War and, I guess, the weather, are convenient narratives for these highly unpopular policies.