What happened to all the female developers? • Hacker News Board

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#51

Post by aninteger » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:40 PM UTC

gonehome wrote: post #2

"In 1987, 42% of the software developers in America were women. And 34% of the systems analysts in America were women. ... the percentages of women who earned Computer Science degrees rose steadily, peaking at 37% in 1984." While that's definitely higher, still seems like the field was male dominated (the majority were male).

The title "Systems Analyst" sometimes has absolutely nothing to do with software development. I know a couple of female Systems Analysts that know nothing about software development. I'm not even exaggerating.. they use a computer, sure, but they do not write or develop any software.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#52

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:41 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#53

Post by gaius » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:41 PM UTC

LiveTheDream wrote: post #50

gaius wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is actually the only plausible explanation at this point in history. The average woman looks at the long hours and job insecurity in high tech and thinks "this is just not worth it". Men, historically, have always done these kinds of jobs and still do. We don't see feminists agitating for more woman refuse collectors do we?

I might be completely misinterpreting sarcasm on the first points. Job insecurity in high tech? Absolutely not - the high tech industry is desperately trying to hire good people. Also, long hours are not a requirement. Lots of developers in startups or the game industry work long hours, but there are plenty of other positions (e.g. DoD sort of work) that is low stress 9-5. Medical work is decidedly not 9-5.

Well, yes and no. I've been laid off twice from high tech firms. Both times I found a (better!) job within a couple of weeks, but if you want a stable career, this is not the industry for you.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#54

Post by lmkg » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:41 PM UTC

Locke1689 wrote: post #7

And she said that one of the things that happens is that women don’t even think they’re qualified for something because it’s advertised in competitive language. The language of competition not only doesn’t appeal to many women, it actually puts them off. This doesn't make sense to me because easily the most competitive path I've ever seen is premed. Almost all of the premeds I know are competing for the best grades,…

You misunderstand the quote. It's not saying that CS positions are too competitive. It's saying they're described as being about competition. Medical degrees are competitive, but they're not about the competition, they're about helping people. Meanwhile, CS is promoted by hosting coding challenges and competitions, and the top-tier jobs advertise how their teams are so much smarter and more accomplished than everyone, and so forth. This creates the perception that not only is the field competitive, but that the competition is practically an end in itself, where in medicine it's an obstacle to the actual goal of helping people (or getting a gigantic salary).

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#55

Post by gaius » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:42 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #35

gaius wrote: post #4

This question makes no sense unless it is also asked in conjuction with "what happened to all the male primary school teachers"?

I think the rise of males in CS was due to the rise of the personal computer. As someone noted earlier, as computers become more common in the home and males started using them, they picked up a stigma associated with the type of males that used them. Why does that have anything to do with primary school teachers? I'm fairly certain very little.

Because it's only a "problem" when an industry is male-dominated it seems. Question is do we want equality, or not?

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#56

Post by BDFL_Xenu » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:43 PM UTC

kscaldef wrote: post #14

gaius wrote: post #4

This question makes no sense unless it is also asked in conjuction with "what happened to all the male primary school teachers"?

I don't see any reason they need to be asked in the same article actually. Was there ever a time when 40% of primary school teachers were male? It's not clear to me that there's any strong parallel between the two professions at all.

It is a good question to ask though, as there are societal pressures against men going into any profession related to children (e.g. the pedophile scare). But asking it _here_ is just cheap whataboutery to silence the discussion.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#57

Post by ovi256 » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:45 PM UTC

diolpah wrote: post #9

A cursory look at the graph indicates that the only place women suffered was on their own code. Resume, phone skills, interpersonal skills, all great.

You're getting downvoted, no doubt because the thing you remarked is a thing-you-can't-say. I completely missed it myself, but it's very telling: code screen eliminates women in a 28:5 (5.6) ratio, compared to men's 26:10 (2.6). A classic rebuttal is that the test could be biased.

Reducing complex phenomena to one factor so that they can be digested on a 30-second news segment or put into soundbites by any politician is an unwelcome consequence of modern media. I have no doubt many factors cause demographic changes such as the one discussed. Testing for the weight of each factor needs scientific work and controlled experiments which are pretty much impossible to carry out, unfortunately. Until then, things will be talked and written about, but remember, it's all fluff. Someday, some historian will even write the definitive history of women in early computer science, and I have no doubt his conclusions will be as disputed as the fall of the Roman empire is today.

But these discussions will still serve as vehicles for political agendas, most of which will be of the variety "more people should be like me".

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#58

Post by cjzhang » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:45 PM UTC

diolpah wrote: post #30

diolpah wrote: post #9

A cursory look at the graph indicates that the only place women suffered was on their own code. Resume, phone skills, interpersonal skills, all great.

The downvotes are appreciated. Where am I wrong?

Why didn't you just say "women can't code?"

Also, the sample size is crap and the deviation is crap relative to the sample size, so you can't make very many truly meaningful observations from it.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#59

Post by rdouble » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:45 PM UTC

saturn wrote: post #47

rdouble wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are women turned off by competitiveness in CS ... but not in medicine? Maybe they are just more practical. The worst physician's salary averages about $50K more than the best programmer's salary. Nurses get paid as much as programmers. If you do pre-med but can't get into med school, you can still get into public health, physical therapy, dentistry, optometry, pharmacy, etc... If you do CS but can't get a job at…

> The worst physician's salary averages about $50K more than the best programmer's salary. Nurses get paid as much as programmers I was all primed with a fiery response about how good programmers in hot markets should be pulling more than 200k, lousy markets at least 100k, and anyone who wasn't is either a lousy negotiator or not good, but then I remembered where I was. The crème de la crème. Yeah, "staff programmers…

Even if you shine you don't make as much as a general physician, and you'll never make as much as a dermatologist. If you want to get rich as a programmer you have to attach yourself to a liquidity event or run your own business.

Re: What happened to all the female developers?

#60

Post by LiveTheDream » Tue, Jul 26, 2011, 4:46 PM UTC

dpritchett wrote: post #38

jff wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to the low-stress 9-5 world of medicine?

Doesn't an M.D. imply more job security and a higher starting wage than any C.S. credential?

It also implies a significantly higher starting debt than C.S. graduates. Medical students take out huge student loans for undergrad and med school, and probably during residency as well because those salaries are really low (around $40K/yr).