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EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

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Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#51

Post by tikhonj »

jen20 wrote: post #15
badsectoracula wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unified interfaces and allowing users to transfer any transferable knowledge between programs was one of the main ideas behind GUIs like the original Macintosh and Windows, but somewhere around the turn of the millennium things... broke. But there was a time when interfaces were unified, sometimes to an absurd level (e.g. applications having a File menu when they had nothing to do with files) but IMO that is still be…

> but somewhere around the turn of the millennium things... broke The rise of electron as an 'acceptable' (to some people) substitute for platform-native applications and the myth of the possibility of the "cross platform UI" has accelerated this, really. It's quite unfortunate.

Seems like Electron would make a stronger foundation than native toolkits for Emacs-style flexibility, extensibility and composition. The DOM, for all its faults, charts a solid path between being flexible and still being structured, all while making it easy to change and extend from the outside. I've found it's much easier to write a browser extension that adds functionality to GMail—even without GMail actively supporting extensions—than it is to write a similar extension to, say, the native Outlook app (even with explicit plugin support from Microsoft).

I haven't paid much attention to the Electron world myself so I don't know to what extent anybody is taking advantage of this, but even if they're not, I expect it would be easier than with alternatives.

Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#52

Post by alex_smart »

pdimitar wrote: post #45
Jtsummers wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://develop.spacemacs.org/doc/FAQ.html#why-does-my-color... Seems like an appropriate FAQ item.

Well okay, fair enough but it doesn't actually solve the problem. Modern terminals can render basically all colors your DE / display supports so I am not sure why there isn't a check for that and utilize the feature if it's there.

https://i.imgur.com/TFTOj8Z.png

This is with the default spacemacs theme. Can you tell which one is the terminal and which one the GUI?

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/efaq/Col...

Emacs does have the feature you want. Perhaps your setup wasn't supported. Which terminal/os were you on?

Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#53

Post by pdimitar »

alex_smart wrote: post #52
pdimitar wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well okay, fair enough but it doesn't actually solve the problem. Modern terminals can render basically all colors your DE / display supports so I am not sure why there isn't a check for that and utilize the feature if it's there.

https://i.imgur.com/TFTOj8Z.png This is with the default spacemacs theme. Can you tell which one is the terminal and which one the GUI? https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/efaq/Col... Emacs does have the feature you want. Perhaps your setup wasn't supported. Which terminal/os were you on?

Ouch.

macOS with iTerm2 and then Alacritty.

Now I am even more confused why it doesn't work well for me.

Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#54

Post by pdimitar »

Jtsummers wrote: post #46
pdimitar wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well okay, fair enough but it doesn't actually solve the problem. Modern terminals can render basically all colors your DE / display supports so I am not sure why there isn't a check for that and utilize the feature if it's there.

You'll need to make sure that your terminal actually supports the variety of colors that emacs is emitting and that your terminal palette matches your emacs GUI color palette. Emacs can't magically switch your terminal from a 16-color mode to 256-colors, or change the palette.

I guess I have to tinker with the palette. Thought I didn't have to when the terminal supports a lot of colors.

Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#55

Post by pdimitar »

alex_smart wrote: post #48
pdimitar wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I mean vanilla Spacemacs . :D I also meant I barely changed it, nothing more. Hence why I was baffled that switching to terminal mode lost like half the syntax coloring. :|

>lost like half the syntax coloring Spacemacs's default theme works quite well in the terminal. Of course, when you are mapping a theme designed for a colorspace with millions of colors to one with 256 colors, there might some issues, but that is to be expected. If even trying a different theme is too much of an effort for you, why in God's name are you wasting your time on an editor whose main USP is customizability…

Because I had no idea Emacs is about that when I started (loooooong ago, almost 20 years ago) and by the time I found out I was already burned out. Sigh.

But I'll make time to migrate away, seems like it's time.

Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#56

Post by zdragnar »

taeric wrote: post #41
zdragnar wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP, but macOS here on a MacBook Pro less than a year old. Emacs has always tempted me, but a number of commands take roughly 2-5x the time compared to something like vscode. Every time I get back to trying out emacs again, I find myself wondering why I would bother with the massive time sink to get it customized to be a sub-par equivalent to another tool that works better for me. Doom emacs comes the closest for…

What commands, in particular?

The most distinctive one is when you start typing a chord- it can take up to a good second to populate the command list. Compare this to vscodes command palette which is instant.

I admit that perhaps there is a configurable lag built in (it would make sense to do so) and while there are other examples that I know bother me, this is the one that jumped out straight away. I'd have to dig back in to have more specifics.

Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#57

Post by alex_smart »

pdimitar wrote: post #53
alex_smart wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://i.imgur.com/TFTOj8Z.png This is with the default spacemacs theme. Can you tell which one is the terminal and which one the GUI? https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/efaq/Col... Emacs does have the feature you want. Perhaps your setup wasn't supported. Which terminal/os were you on?

Ouch. macOS with iTerm2 and then Alacritty. Now I am even more confused why it doesn't work well for me.

>why it doesn't work well for me

Possible reasons:

1. (macOS + inside terminal) isn't a common workflow for emacs contributors, or perhaps for people with that workflow working with 256 colors isn't an issue

2. people who want that workflow who care about having 24 bit colors didn't bother to file a bug report (did you?)

Bitter pill, but I hope it helps: as a beginner to an ecosystem, if you are going to be opinioniated about having an unusual workflow, you are always going to run into problems. If you are running Emacs locally, just run it in GUI mode, that's what most people do.

Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#58

Post by [deleted] »

rcgorton wrote: post #40

Proposal: emacs is now irrelevant. Stabilize it, freeze and kill "future development". Oh, sorry, emacs 'development' is solely about emacs, rather than being about productivity. Too bad that emacs is more about DECs TECO than reality.

[deleted]

Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#59

Post by taeric »

zdragnar wrote: post #56
taeric wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What commands, in particular?

The most distinctive one is when you start typing a chord- it can take up to a good second to populate the command list. Compare this to vscodes command palette which is instant. I admit that perhaps there is a configurable lag built in (it would make sense to do so) and while there are other examples that I know bother me, this is the one that jumped out straight away. I'd have to dig back in to have more specifics.

I'm not sure what chord menu you mean. :(. I /think/ you are describing "echo-keystrokes", which defaults to one second.

M-x is basically instant for me, though. So, not sure why anything like that would be slow.

Re: EmacsConf 2021 Call for Proposals

#60

Post by pdimitar »

alex_smart wrote: post #57
pdimitar wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ouch. macOS with iTerm2 and then Alacritty. Now I am even more confused why it doesn't work well for me.

>why it doesn't work well for me Possible reasons: 1. (macOS + inside terminal) isn't a common workflow for emacs contributors, or perhaps for people with that workflow working with 256 colors isn't an issue 2. people who want that workflow who care about having 24 bit colors didn't bother to file a bug report (did you?) Bitter pill, but I hope it helps: as a beginner to an ecosystem, if you are going to be opinionia…

I do run Emacs in GUI mode and it's embarrassingly slow due to various factors I gradually managed to pinpoint:

1. 5K retina display (other Mac owners seem to share the experience)

2. A font with a lot of graphemes (those without emoji seem to render faster)

3. The synchronous nature of LSP; I still don't get it why LSP can't work asynchronously in Emacs -- it does in VIM.

Hence me asking about terminal mode where it also works rather confusingly to me (I mean the colors).

> (macOS + inside terminal) isn't a common workflow for emacs contributors

As a guy who worked on OSS before -- and wants to do it again -- I am never feeling entitled to other people's work. I just wonder why those scenarios are supported in the first place (if no contributors are interested in making them work well).

> as a beginner to an ecosystem, if you are going to be opinioniated about having an unusual workflow, you are always going to run into problems

Fair enough and I don't think it's a bitter pill at all, I appreciate the feedback. But again, I am wondering why the supposedly first-class option (GUI) is also having problems. :(

> 2. people who want that workflow who care about having 24 bit colors didn't bother to file a bug report (did you?)

I wouldn't even know where to begin. The whole community and ecosystem seem extremely foreign to me and I never even got as far as to find a bug report template (admittedly I didn't try very hard). There's just something... alienating about this community, especially Emacs devs. Maybe I am wrong, I hope I am wrong but, just an accumulated feeling.

In any case, the reason I am getting a bit ticked off is that Emacs is supposedly hugely popular. I'd expect a 5K screen and some richer fonts to not trip it but perhaps you're right that macOS isn't a focus.

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