My small revenge on Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#461

Post by fmajid » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

nyuszika7h wrote: post #171

fmajid wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget in your threat model that Apple can cancel your account at any time for any reason whatsoever. They've even done it to security researchers using Apple's own bug bounty program. If that happens, you are stranded with those accounts effectively inaccessible to you forever. https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/04/20/man-sues-apple-fo...

So? Google can also cancel your account at any time for any reason whatsoever, and good luck getting it back unless you're a celebrity with connections or manage to make a big enough fuss about it on social media. Using the same logic, you should not use Gmail then.

Exactly. I don't use GMail either, own my own domain and run my own email servers.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#462

Post by webmobdev » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

elzbardico wrote: post #358

webmobdev wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only the naive and the ignorant believe that Apple cares about users privacy. All their "privacy" features are just designed to collect more and more data about its users. Even unnecessary data. And they get away with it because of marketing that leads people like you to believe that they can be "trusted" with your data - the same data they use, and will use, to make more money. They have already restarted their adve…

Apple is a capitalistic company, they are not saints. But part of their business model selling hardware and software is partly based on at least maintaining a minimal level of decency, far above what Google and Facebook practice.

I don't agree with that view point. As both a user of Apple's products and as a worried citizen about privacy rights, to me it looks like Apple is just using a different approach to collect the same user data that Google and Facebook desire. It is just using the hindsight of how Google and Facebook went about it, and the negative PR they faced, to refine both its data collection process and PR strategy to convey they are saints. (It's a classic Apple way - they observe their competitors and their product for a while, before refining it and launching their own).

There is a lot of profit in collecting and monetising user's data - Apple's shareholder will not allow them to leave it on the table. Apple knows that as it was part of the PRISM program and earned a lot of money by supplying the US government it's users data. (Apple also dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI complained - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusiv... ). And on a different note, in the early years, Google too begin it's spying and data collection by convincing its users that it is a "decent" company.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#463

Post by pier25 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

sbuk wrote: post #444

pier25 wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a dev uses a Facebook login on an app then it will never be able to remove it again as users won't be able to log in. Similarly, if it uses Facebook comments, these cannot be removed from a website as the content would be lost. Apple does the same thing. As a dev once you open the door to using Apple you're forever stuck with that. As a user, it entrenches you further into the Apple ecosystem which is ultimately t…

Again, the point that you as a developer are missing is that your behavior is atleast as, if not more abusive towards your end user than Apple are being. Why should your user have to use an anti-privacy 3rd party like Facebook to use your app or service? Where is the users choice other than to not use your product? I have to be honest here and say that I amazed, but sadly not surprised by the level of entitlement on…

> your behavior is atleast as, if not more abusive towards your end user than Apple are being

My behavior? You have no idea what I do. I don't even develop for Apple platforms.

> Why should your user have to use an anti-privacy 3rd party like Facebook to use your app or service?

I would never use anything by Facebook. Not sure where you got that from.

> Where is the users choice other than to not use your product?

That is choice.

> I amazed, but sadly not surprised by the level of entitlement on display from a very small but extremely vocal set of developers

As a dev shouldn't I be able to have control over my application?

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#464

Post by johnny_b_g » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

spacedcowboy wrote: post #348

johnny_b_g wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you admit to accusing without evidence.

I admit to distrust. I distrust anyone who tries to downplay privacy as important. I distrust anyone who tries to brand a genuine privacy upgrade as "hype" And, frankly, signing in (with AppleID or not) doesn't prove a thing one way or another. The OP could be simply harvesting email addresses and selling them off later[+]. (S)he could be upset that HME and SIWA are a threat to that business. Far-fetched ? Sure. More…

LOL @ Apple fanboiz' privacy arguments: https://techcrunch.com/2021/08/05/apple-icloud-photos-scanni...

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#465

Post by johnny_b_g » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 8:08 PM UTC

spacedcowboy wrote: post #348

johnny_b_g wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you admit to accusing without evidence.

I admit to distrust. I distrust anyone who tries to downplay privacy as important. I distrust anyone who tries to brand a genuine privacy upgrade as "hype" And, frankly, signing in (with AppleID or not) doesn't prove a thing one way or another. The OP could be simply harvesting email addresses and selling them off later[+]. (S)he could be upset that HME and SIWA are a threat to that business. Far-fetched ? Sure. More…

>I distrust anyone who tries to brand a genuine privacy upgrade as "hype"

I particularly like this Apple fanboi argument - that having a third party (Apple) needlessly involved is somehow more "private" than only just the 2 primary parties being involved.

>I'm a Brit

Well I guess that explains a lot then - you're probably one of those that also voted for brexit, but now completely denies it - right?

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#466

Post by CubsFan1060 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 11:47 PM UTC

collaborative wrote: post #449

CubsFan1060 wrote: post #276

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I feel like you’re getting personally offended here. And I get it, you’re likely a responsible person who will be respectful with my information. However… when looking at apps and signing up for them, can you tell me how I would differentiate someone like you (who I can probably trust) with someone who will sell my information, or send me a ton of emails? Even with good developers, some will make mistakes and lose da…

If you want to make sure, check who is behind the app before you sign up and make an informed decision from there Of course it is easier when you can relate the app to a physical person (as in my case). How can you make sure the physical person has good morals? That is a lot harder I did dislike implementing AppleID purely because I was told to do it and even how to make it look which went against the design I'd alre…

This is an interesting viewpoint.

"It seems Apple users enjoy the "power" Apple has over us." --> Absolutely yes. But it just goes back to my main point - I am unable to vet app developers. And even if I do, there is no way to ensure data is handled well long-term. What if Facebook makes you an offer you can't resist?

Basically, I have had many experiences with developers abusing my information. Now I have someone fighting back for me (don't get me wrong, I'm not an idiot. I know they are doing it because I pay them an obscene amount of money).

The way to convince people is for developers, as a whole, to behave responsibly. If developers had never abused my information, I'd likely have no issues ever giving them some of my information.

Edit: I'd just like to say again that I am in no way saying that you are doing anything bad. You seem like a good fellow. And perhaps the curse of being one of the few good people in a room of bad people.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#467

Post by mosselman » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 8:08 AM UTC

notwedtm wrote: post #332

CivBase wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's evidently not true. Plenty of apps, including the author's, use Google's and Facebook's auth solutions without being coerced into doing so. EDIT: Can someone explain how this is wrong?

The difference here is that neither Google nor Facebook require you to use them in most places.

That is because the motivation is different. Google and Facebook allow you to profile your users and get their real identity. Apple only has upsides for users, not developers.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#468

Post by collaborative » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 9:00 AM UTC

SP2njsPl2WmlAwM wrote: post #278

collaborative wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether you trust the app or not The fact is, I send 0 emails and privacy and security are top priorities. I am passionate about E2E encryption so I have integrated loads of that in the app too The only purpose an email address serves is password recovery. Period TBH I am a bit tired of people trusting big tech so much. They are businesses, meant to make money. I make no money and…

To be clear: This is not meant as a direct attack, just to highlight some of the pitfalls of creating your own e2ee chat protocol. I had a quick look at your app's e2ee and summarized my findings here: https://telegra.ph/Reviewing-the-app-behind-My-small-revenge... Feel free to correct.

I have now fixed the one vulnerability you got right (MITM): https://www.groupsapp.online/post/improved-e2e-encryption

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#469

Post by collaborative » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #318

collaborative wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do care about my users. That's pretty much all I think of all day. Send me a support request? You will have my undivided attention, for free! But please tell me, how else can I push back on Apple's bad behavior? In war, there are collateral victims. And I, a dude who's almost a nobody, is willing to take on Apple by any means necessary when they do this kind of stuff Respect is earned, and it is high time Apple lea…

Yes. Respect is earned. Apple has earned it, and you haven't. Please review what "war" means, also.

Hope that iPhone photo scanning is going well :'D

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#470

Post by Bud » Fri, Aug 06, 2021, 9:21 PM UTC

collaborative wrote: post #469

Bud wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Respect is earned. Apple has earned it, and you haven't. Please review what "war" means, also.

Hope that iPhone photo scanning is going well :'D

If you think that random deflection and taunting is going to distract me, or anyone else here, from the fact that you failed to support your argument, you are mistaken.