My small revenge on Apple • Hacker News Board

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#271

Post by spacedcowboy » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

collaborative wrote: post #184

shellac wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Petty and hysterical. The part where the developer puts the word 'privacy' in scare quotes is a bit of a red flag for me. Suggesting that "accept[ing] two "social logins": Google and Facebook. All was well." does not fill me with confidence that the developer respects privacy concerns.

The reason "privacy" is in quotes is that some of us have started seeing through what Apple really means every time they use the word. As the EU's Executive Vice-President Margrethe Vestager has recently said regarding their Apple probe, privacy can't be an excuse to stifle competition. https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/07/02/eu-antitrust-head... All was well because nobody was forcing me (the developer) to includ…

Indeed it is. And I would choose to trust Apple over some nobody on the internet with a seeming chip on their shoulder (seriously, that post is just cringe) over anyone who promoted Facebook and (to a lesser extent, obviously) Google as sign-in methods.

In. A. Heartbeat.

You claim (elsewhere) that you only send responsible-sounding emails, but the level of invective in your screed leads me to disbelieve you. Personally, I think HME seems to have been created exactly to cope with people like you - and I’m failing to see this “hype” you talk about.

HME makes the value of an email address tend to zero, gives me the ability to cut you off without your agreement (and prevents you from selling my email on afterwards), and places all the control in my domain not yours. That’s simply the truth of the matter, and it’s not hype.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#272

Post by collaborative » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 1:59 PM UTC

somehnacct3757 wrote: post #233

I like the angle of "Sorry, Apple ID only works on Apple devices." The rest of the popup seems unprofessional and would make me reconsider using the software, out of fear for what other unprofessional things may end up happening. But the bit I highlight is a nice jab at Apple and something I think you can get away with professionally in a web app. It mars their login brand a bit by showing that it isn't useful everyw…

Thanks, the web app isn't published yet and I will take this into consideration

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#273

Post by jasode » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

collaborative wrote: post #222

mosselman wrote: post #194

This is a perfect example of why Sign in with Apple is so great: it hides my e-mail and real name from people like the author who are clearly intent on using this information to sell me stuff I don't want.

To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason email is needed is for password recovery But yes, Apple is great. Again, Apple is great. Apple good, good good good

To this:

>To this date, I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. Heck, I don't even try to sell anything, I develop out of love and passion. The only reason email is needed is for password recovery

And your other reply in the thread:

>Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether you trust the app or not The fact is, I send 0 emails and privacy and security are top priorities. [...] TBH I am a bit tired of people trusting big tech so much.

Some constructive criticism about your replies... You come across as tone deaf.

Trust is not granted to you just because _you_ self-report that you're honest. Your comments will be perceived as another variation of, "Hey trust me, I'm an honest guy! Really!"

If you're tired of people "trusting big tech" so much, why would that have anything to do with you being "small tech" (e.g. Javier Antons's small company Collaborative Groups)?

The implicit cognitive consumer heuristic is not "He's a small unknown company -- therefore I trust him _more_ with my email address than a big company like Apple Inc."

You're focused more on your needs from a perspective of a developer instead of a perspective of an untrusting user.

That said, you definitely should remove Apple as an option if they make life as a developer not worth the time.

EDIT to add a link that may help your public relations strategy:

Fyi... your insistence on being perceived as trustworthy is a form of "countersignaling" and it makes people distrust your app. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersignaling

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#274

Post by BugsJustFindMe » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

wayneftw wrote: post #226

mosselman wrote: post #194

This is a perfect example of why Sign in with Apple is so great: it hides my e-mail and real name from people like the author who are clearly intent on using this information to sell me stuff I don't want.

> ...people like the author who are clearly intent on using this information to sell me stuff I don't want. Where was that made clear? My best guess is when the author said: > We are denied customer interaction, freedom to offer any non-Apple payment methods, etc. For example, I am absolutely sure that Groups would have had loads of more IAPs had I been allowed to offer Paypal on top of Apple Pay and what not. Offeri…

> Where was that made clear?

The post appears to be a thinly veiled attempt to cajole people into giving app developers access to their email inboxes as a general rule by throwing insults at Apple for daring to hide email addresses from app developers. Even if this person never tries to sell me things, that rule is clearly meant to enable other people to do so.

It frames "sending personalized emails" as though:

1) The only reason to send personalized emails is for "offering alternative payment methods".

2) Sending personalized emails is no big deal.

But both of those are wrong.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#275

Post by clint » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

What a cry baby

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#276

Post by CubsFan1060 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

collaborative wrote: post #97

schipplock wrote: post #78

So the creator/developer of "The King of Organigrams and Family Trees" (that's the title of the app's website ( https://www.groupsapp.online )) is complaining that Apple is giving its users the ability to hide their email information, am I right? So isn't this a good thing? For me, it is. I don't want to give away my actual email address. I get too much spam already. So I thank Apple for this feature. And of course,…

Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether you trust the app or not The fact is, I send 0 emails and privacy and security are top priorities. I am passionate about E2E encryption so I have integrated loads of that in the app too The only purpose an email address serves is password recovery. Period TBH I am a bit tired of people trusting big tech so much. They are businesses, meant to make money. I make no money and…

I feel like you’re getting personally offended here. And I get it, you’re likely a responsible person who will be respectful with my information.

However… when looking at apps and signing up for them, can you tell me how I would differentiate someone like you (who I can probably trust) with someone who will sell my information, or send me a ton of emails?

Even with good developers, some will make mistakes and lose data. Some will get sold and the new owner will do different things. As a user, not only can I not pick out the bad from the good, but I don’t know that the good will be good forever.

(I say this as someone who has been burned a few time. Always using a different email address when signing up allows me to track who is doing bad things. It happens far too often)

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#277

Post by collaborative » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

yalogin wrote: post #263

collaborative wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not objecting. I don't need email addresses for the case of AppleID users. 100% true I do need them for everyone else who comes from traditional signup However, you seem to have missed the point. My problem is not AppleID, my problem is that Apple forced it on my app and threatened to shut me down if I didn't include it

Forcing it on you is what gives their users the privacy assurance/functionality of using the app and not giving the apps their emails. They want you to redesign your app so that you don’t rely more n mail to provide functionality. It’s a good thing, even for you.

I don't dispute that it is a good thing. I object to the method of implementing it by force

I am an Apple customer as much as an iPhone user is. But Apple chooses to treat me as an employee, after having charged me (and paid me nothing). Do I have the right to be upset? Could they not have sweetened AppleID by encouraging users to ask devs to implement it or even by reducing our dev annual fee by some $? I think it would also have worked

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#278

Post by SP2njsPl2WmlAwM » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

collaborative wrote: post #97

schipplock wrote: post #78

So the creator/developer of "The King of Organigrams and Family Trees" (that's the title of the app's website ( https://www.groupsapp.online )) is complaining that Apple is giving its users the ability to hide their email information, am I right? So isn't this a good thing? For me, it is. I don't want to give away my actual email address. I get too much spam already. So I thank Apple for this feature. And of course,…

Frankly, I couldn't care less about whether you trust the app or not The fact is, I send 0 emails and privacy and security are top priorities. I am passionate about E2E encryption so I have integrated loads of that in the app too The only purpose an email address serves is password recovery. Period TBH I am a bit tired of people trusting big tech so much. They are businesses, meant to make money. I make no money and…

To be clear: This is not meant as a direct attack, just to highlight some of the pitfalls of creating your own e2ee chat protocol.

I had a quick look at your app's e2ee and summarized my findings here: https://telegra.ph/Reviewing-the-app-behind-My-small-revenge...

Feel free to correct.

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#279

Post by cwizou » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:06 PM UTC

There are plenty of reasons to be unhappy with Apple's policies, or lack of documentation, or undocumented API changes, or even the dismissive tone they can take when talking about 3rd party developers (especially when defending against various anti-trust inquiries), but that's a very weird thing to be angry about.

Apple mandates changes all the time, and mandating Apple ID if you already use 3rd party logins is about the least controversial thing I can think of, and the most uncontroversially pro-privacy, pro-user, with incredibly small drawbacks and requirements feature I can think of. iCloud Private relay comes a close second on real user benefits (there are certainly way more drawbacks for the web at large).

At least it's decently documented (try Homekit documentation for a counter point), it's really not a huge job to implement, and there's a clearly stated purpose, force developers to give a "social" sign up that won't harvest their data.

That's exactly the kind of leaning on devs that's a 100% win for end users and that I, as a user and dev expects and wants to see from them. Less unannounced/undocumented screen saver api changes please, though, but I wouldn't cry a tear either on a ban on 3rd party "SDKs" that harvest any data.

Personally, I think adding a Facebook login to an app is a terrible thing to do, and the excuses of "just because it's convenient for users/will increase my signups" just don't fly with me, but that's just my strongly biased opinion.

Ranting (so inaccurately) to your users like that though? I think we can come to a broad consensus that it won't achieve a thing and doesn't exactly will fill your users with confidence about what you do with their data?

Re: My small revenge on Apple

#280

Post by garblegarble » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

collaborative wrote: post #248

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To this date To this date. Tomorrow, though, no one knows. > I have sent 0 marketing emails trying to sell stuff. "I", "I", "I". It's not you. It's me. I don't care what you say you're going to do with it. I don't want to give you my email address to store in another database. I'm sure you're very nice, but sorry not sorry. > The only reason email is needed is for password recovery You don't need my email at all if…

Not objecting. I don't need email addresses for the case of AppleID users. 100% true I do need them for everyone else who comes from traditional signup However, you seem to have missed the point. My problem is not AppleID, my problem is that Apple forced it on my app and threatened to shut me down if I didn't include it

>However, you seem to have missed the point. My problem is not AppleID, my problem is that Apple forced it on my app and threatened to shut me down if I didn't include it

My understanding is that Apple only force you to include this if you provide other third-party login options.

This is a consumer-friendly feature that Apple is forcing you to implement so that your users on Apple platforms can choose to use your app's one-click third party login functionality whist still retaining control about what personal data they share with you.

Apple's platforms require a variety of consumer- and privacy-friendly features from developers who choose to release apps on them, and you could make your same argument against any of them (e.g. not tracking the user without their permission)

That Apple does this and holds third-party developers to standards for privacy and consumer-friendliness is why I (and many others) use their platforms.