131–140 of 205 posts
Can someone explain to me how PoS is not centralized? The whole point of crypto and the blockchain is decentralization, no? I feel like crypto/blockchain will end up looking nothing like how it was intended, and be regulated to the point that it's just the next iteration of the traditional banking system, where the current power holders continue holding the power. Maybe I was naive to ever think it would be any diffe…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is why I think XRP will ultimately be a winner. No mining, no staking, just validating transactions.
Is there a law of the internet describing the phenomenon whereby any comment criticising cryptocurrency will promptly elicit a response comment proffering a cryptocurrency that's somehow different and "not like those other cryptos"?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
How many stakers actually have enough to win blocks though. What is the impact of shorting on PoS - what happens when I borrow enough ETH to win blocks, deliberately mis-verify TXs, and screw up consensus. I know Ethereum has planned recovery for situations like this, but PoS introduces risks that will never be as present in PoW bc the latter has built-in latency to how easy it is to aggregate resources which increas…
> How many stakers actually have enough to win blocks though. Just as in PoW miners make blocks in proportion to their hashpower, PoS stakers win blocks in proportion to their stake > What is the impact of shorting on PoS - what happens when I borrow enough ETH to win blocks, deliberately mis-verify TXs, and screw up consensus. Well, you can't "mis-verify TXs", everyone can check your work to see that all of the tran…
Using the below language to discuss a threat model vs. implications of my tinfoil hat existing or not...
5B USD for an attack isn't a major barrier though to an actor looking to attack ETH, though. Are you implying that it is?
For reference, some of the crypto-lenders have around 15B USD-equiv under deposit, and they're fairly small stakes wrt capitalization of possible attackers of ETH.
The issue I point out and don't hear discussion on except stuff like you've posted is that it's significantly easier to acquire 5B USD to DoS a PoS network, than it is to acquire enough hash rate and lag time due to physical data center constraints to do something equivalent POW. PoS might be secure-enough, but it's not just a clean, environmentally better but security equivalent swap out for PoW.
The assumptions seem to be that the attacker would want to do it to take over and their coins will be deleted when caught, that there are protocols in place to recover consensus if this happens based on community involvement, and lastly that an acquisition of that much ETH would be noticed before an attack. Take these together, and security risks of PoS are controlled.
But that's fairly narrow minded wrt adequate risk controls and actually considering the threat model
- Cost to do it: 5B to DoS ETH into a consensus-rebuild isn't a high barrier to entry.
- Goals of an attack: There are plenty of attackers that would be happy just DoS'ing it vs. winning consensus on their chain version for DSs or what have you.
- Has this been done: there's more than enough precedent out there of acquiring 5B covertly, especially with a derivatives market in place. Easy example is across multiple crypto lenders aggregate enough ETH derivatives that can be converted to the underlying, convert in unison, and 5B of ETH suddenly lands. This is already sort of how it's done in normal corporate finance.
- Community involvement in a recovery: I'm really skeptical of the community-driven recovery mechanism. Tezos/EOS and similar already had a lot of trouble making this approach to consensus fixes work because of basic voter participation challenges. It sounds more like a few key nodes will drive a fix like in the DAO, and then this starts to look fairly centralized. Not a bad thing as it will fix chain problems, but again not a clean 1:1 swap for PoW security guarantees.
Final point - "well there must be someone thinking of the risk modeling here in PoS and accounting for it, Ethereum has smart people working on it" The reality is that protocol-level security research beyond the 51% consensus research and strong cryptography is really, really lightly done. This was a main topic of MIT Bitcoin Expo's Keynote this year, actually. PoW took 30 years of research and some luck during BTC's early days to identify that it could actually secure a chain. PoS does not have that history yet.
The edit - when I ref 5B USD, I'm implying the ability to convert it into equiv ETH. This is still doable as the market isn't that illiquid, and if you spread out the balance over a N-nodes until you aggregate for the attack, attributing that to a single attacker is very hard to do.
It's worse than fiat.
Can someone explain to me how PoS is not centralized? The whole point of crypto and the blockchain is decentralization, no? I feel like crypto/blockchain will end up looking nothing like how it was intended, and be regulated to the point that it's just the next iteration of the traditional banking system, where the current power holders continue holding the power. Maybe I was naive to ever think it would be any diffe…
How is it more centralized than PoW? I see multiple factors that hamper decentralization: - Fixed costs that act as barrier of entry - Economies of scale that lead to centralization - Geographic factors (operation costs being different in different parts of the world, regulation/taxation, supply chain...) This is how I see each factor playing out in both scenarios: - Fixed costs: PoS runs on consumer-grade hardware,…
Can someone explain to me how PoS is not centralized? The whole point of crypto and the blockchain is decentralization, no? I feel like crypto/blockchain will end up looking nothing like how it was intended, and be regulated to the point that it's just the next iteration of the traditional banking system, where the current power holders continue holding the power. Maybe I was naive to ever think it would be any diffe…
The answer is that it isn't, and none of these systems ever were. They're distributed, not decentralized. And this distinction, and the refusal to acknowledge it is what put me off crypto entirely.
- My money is secured by a private key and nobody can touch it ever unless they get my private key. I can simply be cautious about my private key and I know there is no other way anyone can ever get my money
- I can fill out a text box with the amount I want to send and press send
- I don't have to deal with some harebrained naming system. I can literally just send to someone's public key. This is literally how cryptography is inteded to work. It's up to _me_ how I obtain his public key.
- Monero etc exists (admittedly, not sure if it still works when someone has all the mining/stake power)
- Some guy is getting rich because he owns more miners or stake
- My password is 8 digits (this is not even an exaggeration, some of the biggest banks in my country do this)
- The bank might give all my money away if someone knows where I ate KFC last
- My money may be stolen for other reasons, because the bank wont tell me what data I need to keep private to avoid having someone transact as me
- The ID they use for authentication was also given to some 30 other e-commerce platforms and cannot be considered secure
- There is almost certainly a way to get into my account without the password
- I have to be paranoid and try to keep random trivia private such as how much I payed on an electricity bill
- I have to type codes from insecure SMS on a phone that I do not want in the first place, because the bank and all e-commerce platforms considers me an idiot and does not even give me an option to turn that shit off
- If I transfer from one country to another, my transaction may be blocked
- If I transfer some certain amount, my transfer may be blocked
- If I use a certain IP address, my transfer may be blocked
- If I transact at a certain time, my transfer may be blocked
- If I update Firefox too fast or too slow, my transfer may be blocked
- If I click buttons to fast or too slow, my transfer may be blocked
- Someone might hack my computer because it has a Big 4 web browser and the giant stack of software required to support that, instead of a hypothetical OS where people care about security and don't use C, at the cost of some microseconds.
- If I change my email address (which I don't want associated to banking in the first place) for some reason, my transfer may be blocked
- When I call the bank, I have to be polite and try to avoid saying anything suspicious (in their own mind) that will make them hold my money yet longer. I will have to supply them will all kinds of nonsense like where I ate KFC last, more ID, and a "phone password"
- My transactions may be permanently blocked and there's nothing I can do about it because the bank reps just talk to a black box "risk analysis" machine and at some point there's no way to override its decisions
- Money I receive can be "reversed" for all kinds of bogus, emotional, and/or "risk analysis" reasons
- The bank can just take my money and claim I was hacked. They have N pieces of my photo ID, address, phone number, email, and much more, and so they can choose a few people they don't like and do this to only them
- I have to interact with my bank through web pages that crash every 3 button clicks, and PDF files that may or may not render correctly (or snail mail, which is equally full of bad security)
- Some guy is getting rich because he's positioned a certain way with the bank
Earlier quoted context omitted.
How is it more centralized than PoW? I see multiple factors that hamper decentralization: - Fixed costs that act as barrier of entry - Economies of scale that lead to centralization - Geographic factors (operation costs being different in different parts of the world, regulation/taxation, supply chain...) This is how I see each factor playing out in both scenarios: - Fixed costs: PoS runs on consumer-grade hardware,…
This is exactly right. Too many folks assume PoW is more decentralized because it's not tied to money, but what's the difference if mining requires money? As you note, PoS lowers the barrier to entry and actually creates a more egalitarian system, despite with Bitcoin maximalists think.
However both can be overcome by pooling money or hash power...but then again that doesn't lead to more decentralization.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is exactly right. Too many folks assume PoW is more decentralized because it's not tied to money, but what's the difference if mining requires money? As you note, PoS lowers the barrier to entry and actually creates a more egalitarian system, despite with Bitcoin maximalists think.
PoS doesn't exactly lower the barrier to entry. Anyone with a GPU can mine (very unlikely to be profitable as a stand alone miner)...but staking 32ETH is a pretty high cost right now ($90Kish). However both can be overcome by pooling money or hash power...but then again that doesn't lead to more decentralization.
While pooling hashpower doesn't solve the economies of scale mentioned above. If your hashrate per kW is bad you will get a very poor yield on your investment. There is also a commission to pay to the pool operator. Pooling in PoW serves only to receive a more consistent revenue stream.
Can someone explain to me how PoS is not centralized? The whole point of crypto and the blockchain is decentralization, no? I feel like crypto/blockchain will end up looking nothing like how it was intended, and be regulated to the point that it's just the next iteration of the traditional banking system, where the current power holders continue holding the power. Maybe I was naive to ever think it would be any diffe…
How is it more centralized than PoW? I see multiple factors that hamper decentralization: - Fixed costs that act as barrier of entry - Economies of scale that lead to centralization - Geographic factors (operation costs being different in different parts of the world, regulation/taxation, supply chain...) This is how I see each factor playing out in both scenarios: - Fixed costs: PoS runs on consumer-grade hardware,…