Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

cnn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 335 posts

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#81

Post by skeeter2020 »

MattGaiser wrote: post #35
armchairhacker wrote: post #28

I've never worked as a nurse or doctor but it's hard to imagine what they go through. Every day they deal with people in serious pain, people with traumatic injuries, rude people, rude people with traumatic injuries, screaming children and babies. Apparently nurses in particular are also routinely disrespected by higher-ups, put in danger by higher-ups, and don't get paid much. In college I heard insane stories from…

I find it absurd that we allow medical staff to work 24 hour shifts. We don't let pilots do that. We don't let truckers do that.

Most mistakes happen on the hand-offs, known as "continuity of care", which is both shift-to-shift and phase of care back to health. Longer shifts help with the former at the cost of fatigue-based mistakes, so it is a balancing act, but not as simple as "shorter shifts". The challenge is unlike pilots and truckers the process points when you can naturally terminate a shift are far less defined and predictable. Ex: a pilot who's forced to divert and enter a holding pattern will extend his shift, regardless of the number of hours flown; every hospital shift in an ER is like this.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#82

Post by analog31 »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #26
MattGaiser wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company cares about you, it is shown in money. The People and Culture guy is a snake oil salesman meant to scam you.

I think you're underplaying non-financial incentives. I would rather have a job that pays $X but offers flexible work hours and vacation time that allows me to be a better parent, than a job that pays $1.5X but won't let me take a day or afternoon off to (e.g.) take my kid to the doctor, etc. Granted, that probably applies more to WFH desk jobs than front-line nurses.

Is such a tradeoff common? Or do the best employers offer both?

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#83

Post by NineStarPoint »

planet-and-halo wrote: post #48
MattGaiser wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company cares about you, it is shown in money. The People and Culture guy is a snake oil salesman meant to scam you.

This is very reductive and I assume means you've never worked somewhere with an actually decent culture. I understand your cynicism: there are indeed a lot of bullshitters out there. But there are some good places to work here and there, places where the bosses listen and respect the humanity and autonomy of the people around them. Frequently this occurs at a local level rather than across an entire company, but it d…

I would say that money is more than just personal pay. It’s paying for enough personnel that people aren’t overworked, and can safely take a day or two off if they need it for mental health. Its in paying for the items and tools and spaces to make the job easier/less stressful for the employees, instead of nickel and diming. I agree that there are culture people who aren’t just bullshitters out there, but a lot of that comes in them being able to argue upward to the top brass for the resources the employees need to be comfortable enough for a good work culture to take place. There are other things a good culture person has to do of course, but as always resources are so foundational that its hard for other things to matter if money isn’t taken care of first.

In the case of hospitals, it’s almost always the top brass’s lack of willingness to hire more people that causes the greatest pressure of culture. Without a person willing to argue that the admins should be paid less so that each individual doctor has more time for each patient, the culture will remain toxic due to the stress that causes the doctors.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#84

Post by Minor49er »

nradov wrote: post #59
MattGaiser wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it absurd that we allow medical staff to work 24 hour shifts. We don't let pilots do that. We don't let truckers do that.

It's a complicated problem. Tired healthcare providers make more errors. But the majority of harmful errors happen in handing over patient care from one provider to another. Shorter shifts mean more care transitions. A patient in the ICU isn't like a truck that you can park and leave alone for 8 hours.

The comment reminds me of an old joke:

A mechanic sits down next to a doctor at the bar. They get to talking. Before long, the mechanic says, "hey, you and I aren't so different. We both open things up and fix 'em. How come you get so much more credit than I do?"

The doctor says, "You get to turn the cars off before working on them."

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#85

Post by MattGaiser »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #26
MattGaiser wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company cares about you, it is shown in money. The People and Culture guy is a snake oil salesman meant to scam you.

I think you're underplaying non-financial incentives. I would rather have a job that pays $X but offers flexible work hours and vacation time that allows me to be a better parent, than a job that pays $1.5X but won't let me take a day or afternoon off to (e.g.) take my kid to the doctor, etc. Granted, that probably applies more to WFH desk jobs than front-line nurses.

Money can be used to care in different ways. It can be in cash for your current workload or it can be to hire others so your workload is less.

But both cost money.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#86

Post by res0nat0r »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #26
MattGaiser wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company cares about you, it is shown in money. The People and Culture guy is a snake oil salesman meant to scam you.

I think you're underplaying non-financial incentives. I would rather have a job that pays $X but offers flexible work hours and vacation time that allows me to be a better parent, than a job that pays $1.5X but won't let me take a day or afternoon off to (e.g.) take my kid to the doctor, etc. Granted, that probably applies more to WFH desk jobs than front-line nurses.

I think in this case, I think hospital staff at least would like to be paid more for the hell they've been going through over the last year vs. having folks stand outside on their balcony and clap at 7PM and pretend that will fix everything.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#87

Post by muaytimbo »

vagrantJin wrote: post #37
papito wrote: post #16

The garbage fire of 2020 was almost worth it, it seems. First, the reconfiguration for hybrid remote work, but also - helping the "essential employee" class realize they have been taken for suckers. I can imagine it's hard to go back to pulling overtime around ungrateful anti-vaxxers, while the office TV is showing billionaires take off into space in personal rocket penises.

> while the office TV is showing billionaires take off into space in personal rocket penises. Stripped of the emotional phraseology, I 100% agree with your point. There is something pointedly psychotic about flying rockets just because when your employees are not paid or treated fairly. But that's just psuedo "capitalism".

I assume we're talking about Bezos here, Amazon pays above the prevailing wage in most markets and if workers don't feel they are being treated fairly they have the choice to work elsewhere. Bezos is flying to space not "just because", he's flying to space in order to build another company we all might benefit from, like AWS or Prime. He's flying to space because he's earned it, by improving a lot of developers and consumers lives. The timing was just unfortunate and a "gotcha" moment for those who complain about anyone with more than $100 in their bank accounts.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#88

Post by matz1 »

originalvichy wrote: post #2

It was unexpected but still somehow expected since many of them were already overworked before covid hit. Turns out the healthcare systems didn't get overloaded by just the virus, but also the years or decades old issues bubbling under the surface. Nurses all the way in Finland are voting with their feet as well. Management that isn't up to par, working hours, pay... David Graeber's essays about how caring work is bo…

plus now they have to do all kind of new ridiculous covid protocol

testing tests all patients being admitted to the hospital

no wonder they are overworked

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#89

Post by skeeter2020 »

TheFreim wrote: post #70
nradov wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a complicated problem. Tired healthcare providers make more errors. But the majority of harmful errors happen in handing over patient care from one provider to another. Shorter shifts mean more care transitions. A patient in the ICU isn't like a truck that you can park and leave alone for 8 hours.

That's a really interesting point I'd never thought of before. Do you know of any discussions/articles on this topic? Would be interested to learn more, I always just assumed long doctor shifts was a combination of lack of workers and stinginess.

Also, unlike say a trucker, the work of doctors and nurses is very reactive to environmental conditions (feast or famine), so it allows for limited downtime where you might sneak in a nap between 20-60 minutes, or might be 100% your entire shift. It might make scheduling slightly easier is some regard, but it's actually a very expensive way to staff.

Re: Hospital exec says employees are walking off the job

#90

Post by syshum »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #26
MattGaiser wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company cares about you, it is shown in money. The People and Culture guy is a snake oil salesman meant to scam you.

I think you're underplaying non-financial incentives. I would rather have a job that pays $X but offers flexible work hours and vacation time that allows me to be a better parent, than a job that pays $1.5X but won't let me take a day or afternoon off to (e.g.) take my kid to the doctor, etc. Granted, that probably applies more to WFH desk jobs than front-line nurses.

That only works if $X is over your what you feel is "required" to sustain your life style.

Generally Speaking in all but the biggest cities that is probably around the 60K-70K annual mark anything over that a person might put other things ahead of salary

However if you are working for $60K you bet you ass MONEY is how a company should be showing their love...

Post reply on HN