Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#301

Post by simonh » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #284

MangoCoffee wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision. how many American get into that kind of shit storm? it seem like this benefit isn't worth the taxes that you pay

How many Americans actually end up with real tax liability from a foreign country? Probably need to answer that before we determine whether it's "worth it" because my understanding is most people don't.

Well there are a handful right here on this comment section. I'm a Brit and have known maybe half a dozen US citizens reasonably well here in London over the years, at least two of which renounced US citizenship for tax reasons while I knew them. It's definitely a thing.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#302

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #243

not-so wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What circumstances are those? There are a ton of homeless Americans where I live and the embassy doesn't do anything until they commit a crime as far as I know.

> What circumstances are those? If there is an act of war or natural disaster, the U.S. is good at extracting its citizens. There is also a decent precedent of negotiating to release people taken hostage or held prisoner by unfriendly regimes. (Or causing a fuss when Americans are harmed in a friendly country.) That, in turn, has a deterrent effect. For Americans with access to legal counsel and the State Department,…

For example, Israel goes to extremely great lengths extracting its citizens in trouble (search Operation Entebbe), and no, they don't charge you any taxes if you reside permanently abroad.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#303

Post by libbroscrubber » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

space_rock wrote: post #296

altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

It's funny that citizens of every other rich country on the planet have this free arrangement where we only pay tax where we live. But in your fantasies this behaviour and freedom is so evil we should be blocked from returning home

There can be two issues happening simultaniously:

1. It's unfair for the US to tax it's "citizens" when they no longer live in the country.

2. Billionaires can only become billionaires through exploitation and now some are using this to further shirk any sort of social responsibility or paying back to the systems that created them.

The real problem is that we've allowed billionaires to exist.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#304

Post by space_rock » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:57 PM UTC

Gunax wrote: post #270

It's completely corrupt. I don't know why we cannot change it. Remember that you need not ever even have been to America to be a citizen. Second, America can decide who is a citizen according to their own laws, which is a bit of a conflict of interest. So currently children of Americans are American, but there's no reason they couldn't arbitrarily decide that grand children, or great grandchildren are as well. Or if…

This does happen. People get unwanted US citizenship have to renounce. Rediculous to tax someone for that

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#305

Post by gr1zzlybe4r » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

larrysalibra wrote: post #103

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

As a former American who lived abroad for about 11 years before renouncing, “cartoonishly cruel” is a pretty accurate description of the system. It’s even worse an American entrepreneur abroad because that makes things even more complicated. I gave up jumping through the hoops in 2018 and the self-torture and renounced. I shared my story in case anyone is interested: https://larrysalibra.com/goodbye-usa/

Have you ever wondered if it weren't HK - where your exit country would be? Did Italy or any other place in the EU appeal to you at all? I hold dual US-UK, which means the EU isn't really an option for me anymore.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#306

Post by gricardo99 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #284

MangoCoffee wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision. how many American get into that kind of shit storm? it seem like this benefit isn't worth the taxes that you pay

How many Americans actually end up with real tax liability from a foreign country? Probably need to answer that before we determine whether it's "worth it" because my understanding is most people don't.

At least from those expats posting here, the issue isn’t the actual real tax liability, but the burden of having to show the IRS every year that you don’t think you have a tax liability.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#307

Post by libbroscrubber » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

azth wrote: post #64

igorkraw wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you'd have to give some evidence for the claims you are making (voluntary, win-win, creating a company being collaborative...) as long as the US doesn't have free health care,free housing and/or some form of UBI. "Take job where you have to pee in bottles or live in squalor" doesn't seem that voluntary to me

The onus is on the person making the claim to provide the evidence. Forming a company (that doesn't work in immoral areas) is a perfectly ethical and legal way of making money. UBI is not the only solution. Islamic countries have for over 1400 years had the Zakat system, which provides for the poor and needy.

Wealth inequality is proof of exploitation. Look at CEO to worker pay. The capitalists have the system rigged.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#308

Post by goodpoint » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

ytNumbers wrote: post #120

risaacs99 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is classic libertarian thinking, and I used to subscribe to it, at least to some extent. The more you think about it, though, the more it doesn't hold up. It's just undeniably true that individual freedoms exist only to the extent that society allows them to. To think that you can opt out of society is fantasy. It's in everybody's best interest to make sure society works well for everyone, and that kind of think…

> To think that you can opt out of society is fantasy. It seems to me that the wealthy who leave the country and renounce their citizenship are effectively opting out of society. It's not a fantasy for the wealthy. We live in a competitive world where people have freedom of movement. The wealthy will tend to go where they are treated best. I think society works well for everyone when the government keeps the tax rate…

> are effectively opting out of society

No: they get to choose which society to live in and which legal system gives them less trouble.

Everybody else has little choice.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#309

Post by ggggtez » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

fourthwaveska wrote: post #166

coldtea wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By most western standards my family teeters on the line between middle and upper middle clas. (...) we are shopping for 4-6 unit buildings within 100km of Barcelona I'm not sure this is what upper middle, much less middle, class is. A family that can pay several millions for houses abroad just to get a visa to change citizenship is way above middle class, or even upper middle class for that matter. Pew Research def…

The Spanish golden visa will require a €550k housing investment, then the normal amount of accrued in-country time for citizenship. Maybe we’re sort of upper midde-class then. We gross about $200k consulting. Not rich, not poor. We live in the developing world now so here we are definitely upper middle class/rich, and do not have millions in assets.

You are upper class. Yes you're not rich, but you're not middle class.

The middle class American dream is a house in the suburbs with a white picket fence, 2 cars, and a dog.

You're talking about buying a half million dollar house in Spain because of a moral concern about global geopolitics. You're not middle class.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#310

Post by DamnYuppie » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

berinateni wrote: post #264

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

Eric Schmidt renounced his US citizenship even though he owns 2 California homes and one in Massachusetts.

You don't have to be a US citizen to purchase property in the country. This is the same for many of the European, Central/South American and South East Asian countries. Is it as straightforward as being a citizen no, but it can usually be done without much extra effort.