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Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

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Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#241

Post by ttyprintk »

jkepler wrote: post #207
Thiez wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all terribly off-topic, but presumably they are talking about Matthew 19:24, which says (ymmv based on your exact translation): "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Thanks. Yes, off-topic. Particularly considering that according to Genesis 13:2, Abraham (key for Paul's argument in Romans 4 for justification by faith) was "very rich in gold, silver, and cattle", and that in 1 Timothy 6, Paul warns Timothy not against riches per se, but against " the love of money". Biblically speaking, its not whether one is rich or not, but whether one loves (or worships) riches and the associat…

James 5 1-6 came to mind.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#242

Post by not-so »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184
mgbmtl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension, so having one residency is logical.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

What circumstances are those? There are a ton of homeless Americans where I live and the embassy doesn't do anything until they commit a crime as far as I know.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#243

Post by JumpCrisscross »

not-so wrote: post #242
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

What circumstances are those? There are a ton of homeless Americans where I live and the embassy doesn't do anything until they commit a crime as far as I know.

> What circumstances are those?

If there is an act of war or natural disaster, the U.S. is good at extracting its citizens. There is also a decent precedent of negotiating to release people taken hostage or held prisoner by unfriendly regimes. (Or causing a fuss when Americans are harmed in a friendly country.) That, in turn, has a deterrent effect.

For Americans with access to legal counsel and the State Department, the benefits expand. Rich, overseas Americans thus present a unique free-rider problem.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#244

Post by cblconfederate »

alephnan wrote: post #175
cblconfederate wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's no different than ireland (same % taxation), are they both tax havens? Cyprus is not on the OECD tax havens list for years, and in fact are considered a rather safe choice, hence the rise in popularity of their residence/citizenship programs (and their fees)

> It's no different than ireland (same % taxation), are they both tax havens? Any country can be a tax haven if you're not already living there and rich enough to negotiate special terms. Greece and Cyprus offers citizenship-by-investment, and there are many ways wealthy people can 'invest' in the same way they do 'philanthropy'.

greece does not offer citizenship-by-investment (and cyprus' program has been suspended)

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#245

Post by rory »

jkepler wrote: post #107
mytailorisrich wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how could the US government stop this from happening? By taxing based on residency, not citizenship, like pretty much all other countries on Earth. People have the right to lower their tax liability within the law, they have the right to move, and they have the right to renounce citizenship (if they have another one). We're not going to prevent any of that from happening. The only thing the US can do is to remove t…

Do you have a citation where US (federal) law requires one to have a foreign citizenship in order to renounce US citizenship? Or, would it be possible to renounce US citizenship without foreign citizenship, perhaps while maintaining citizenship in one's state of origin in one of the seven states—Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, and Wyoming—which levy no state income tax, or in one of the two…

Wouldn't you not have a passport in that case? So presumably you would never be able to get back to the state you have a tie to, right? Seems like a tenuous circumstance.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#247

Post by dlisboa »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #184
mgbmtl wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering US citizenship is a logical choice Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. In most Western countries, being a resident is associated with healthcare and pension, so having one residency is logical.

> Only because of US laws. I have two citizenships, but one residency. U.S. citizenship carries extraterritorial benefits. For example, we're pretty good at getting our people out of thorny situations, even at great national expense. If someone isn't paying to support that, it makes sense to force a revocation decision.

That’s only relevant to a tiny percentage of American immigrants who travel/work in conflict zones and unfriendly countries.

It could even be said Americans are more at risk in those countries for being American and no other reason. So for people outside of that there won’t be any benefit.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#248

Post by circular_logic »

ttyprintk wrote: post #221
apples_oranges wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can a citizenship be exchanged? For example you get my Australian passport, I get your American? Neither country loses a taxpayer this way.. ;)

I believe to renounce you must first have dual nationality. You could marry a foreigner for nationality, then (eventually) both renounce your home country.

While that is the smart way to go. The USA is one of the few country's that will allow you to become stateless.[1] But I am not sure why you would ever do that.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renunciation_of_citizenship#St...

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#249

Post by mikelward »

papito wrote: post #45
bellyfullofbac wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Close to the top of the article: > Between the lines: While the numbers are down this year, that's probably because many U.S. embassies and consulates remain closed for COVID-19, and taking this grave step requires taking an oath in front of a State Department officer. So it seems these are American passport holders who already live in foreign countries, so contributing to American infrastructure, etc, but not benefi…

They would not be EU citizens. The taxes are even higher. The article is around specifically renouncing American citizenships. Also, dual-citizenship is useless. If you are, say, in Russia, and you have your Russian passport on you, the American consulate won't lift a finger - your ass is wholly Moscow's.

The people in the article aren't the only ones affected.

If I ever move back to Australia, I'll have to file US taxes and other reports such as FBAR for the rest of my life. If you get it wrong, they can and have seized up to 50% of your wealth. Not because it's owed, but just as a penalty.

And many Australian financial institutions won't let me open an account because of the reporting requirements.

This isn't just about the rich avoiding taxes. It's about the US overreaching and creating headaches for lots of people.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#250

Post by hnthrwy1111 »

alephnan wrote: post #208
hnthrwy1111 wrote: post #185

I'm an "accidental American" who has navigated this issue and it's incredibly easy. Just don't file. Every professional that writes blogs about this has a professional duty to give legal advice but the practical advice is just don't file. Look into what exactly triggers data to be sent to the IRS under your tax treaty and the policies of your financial institutions. Being "accidental" is the key here. If you tell you…

> You have a duty not to comply. If you're making income in America, you owe US tax taxes. If you are a permanent resident of the United States, you owe US taxes. Whether the IRS is using mafia tactics or not, what you are describing is tax evasion. There are legal ways to minimize your tax burden, but this is horrible advise.

In my case as an accidental American I was not born in the US, I have never lived in the US, I have never worked in the US, I receive no benefits from the US, I was ineligible for the covid stimulus, I am unable to vote in US elections. It's comical to categorize my refusal to participate in this scam as tax evasion. I don't live in the US, I live in a supposedly sovereign nation. Just as Americans pointed out the absurdity of China's new laws that target foreign HK dissidents extraterritorial overreach should always be seen as the joke that it is.
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