Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#221

Post by ttyprintk » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

apples_oranges wrote: post #76

circular_logic wrote: post #63

Interesting facts about renouncing American citizenship: - There is renunciation fee that has to be paid and currently stands at $2,350 (the highest in the world).[1] - A final tax return will sill need to be filed. [1] - An Expatriation tax is payable if [..] Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation. you will be treated as having disposed of your assets the day before your expatriation a…

Can a citizenship be exchanged? For example you get my Australian passport, I get your American? Neither country loses a taxpayer this way.. ;)

I believe to renounce you must first have dual nationality. You could marry a foreigner for nationality, then (eventually) both renounce your home country.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#222

Post by Chris2048 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

luffapi wrote: post #126

cpursley wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wealthy in America cover the bulk of the tax revenue collected if the IRS stats are to be trusted.

The wealthy pay far less in taxes in proportion to their wealth than everyone else. Long term capital gains is only 10%. The wealthy are only wealthy because the non-wealthy people who vastly outnumber the wealthy, allow them to keep their capital. I think massive wealth inequality is making a significant number of people rethink this generous position.

> Long term capital gains is only 10%

But it has yet to be taxed as income. Even if it doesn't devalue, you can't use it until you dispose of it, incurring additional tax.

> The wealthy are only wealthy because the non-wealthy people who vastly outnumber the wealthy, allow them to keep their capital.

The wealthy can afford better weaponry than you. Are you alive only because they allow you to live?

> rethink this generous position

Do you think you are entitled to something just because you could (forcibly) take it?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#223

Post by sobellian » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #179

trainsplanes wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What percent of wealth does the top 1% possess vs the bottom 90 percent combined? Wikipedia says the top 1% possesses precisely 38.5% of the country's wealth, so it's more than reasonable that they shoulder at least 38.5% of the taxes. [1] This stat is also from 2016. That divide has grown immensely these past few years. The stat the Tax Foundation presents is made to make us sympathetic towards people who control ba…

Income and this income taxes are first derivatives of wealth. It doesn't make sense to directly compare the two. The wealthy spend relatively little of their wealth on discretionary spending.

Ordinary income is not the first derivative of wealth, capital gains also contribute.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#224

Post by Chris2048 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #137

circular_logic wrote: post #63

Interesting facts about renouncing American citizenship: - There is renunciation fee that has to be paid and currently stands at $2,350 (the highest in the world).[1] - A final tax return will sill need to be filed. [1] - An Expatriation tax is payable if [..] Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation. you will be treated as having disposed of your assets the day before your expatriation a…

That honestly seems quite reasonable. Citizenship comes with all sorts of obligations like getting drafted and serving on juries, taxes are simply the most obvious. On the up side you can apparently still qualify for Social Security benefits.

> Citizenship comes with all sorts of obligations like getting drafted and serving on juries

If you've already done those things, does the IRS pay you?

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#225

Post by vertis » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

dbetteridge wrote: post #164

EE84M3i wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I seem to recall hearing Australians also have complicated rules about being an "Australian resident for tax purposes" that is not the same as an Australian resident for other purposes, especially when you don't have Permanent Residence/Green Card and are on a time-limited visa (even if it's years long). So they don't technically fall into the "America and Eritrea" bad list, but still tax many Australians abroad…

Not too bad really for us overseas Australians. If you took out a HECS (0% interest, indexed to inflation) loan for university study you still need to file taxes when resident overseas and continue making payments if you earn over the threshold. If you are resident in Australia more then 6mths of the year you must complete an Australian tax return, but for most people that involves logging in around september and che…

You have to be able to prove you're a resident somewhere overseas though, and that you've broken your ties to Australia.

It's more complicated for digital nomads that don't really have a permanent place overseas.

Other than that though, agreed. AU taxation filing is not complicated.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#226

Post by papito » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

jkepler wrote: post #207

Thiez wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all terribly off-topic, but presumably they are talking about Matthew 19:24, which says (ymmv based on your exact translation): "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Thanks. Yes, off-topic. Particularly considering that according to Genesis 13:2, Abraham (key for Paul's argument in Romans 4 for justification by faith) was "very rich in gold, silver, and cattle", and that in 1 Timothy 6, Paul warns Timothy not against riches per se, but against " the love of money". Biblically speaking, its not whether one is rich or not, but whether one loves (or worships) riches and the associat…

I should have specified, the New Testament is particularly anti-wealth and pro helping the disadvantaged. The Old Testament is like the internet - you can always find horrible examples to reinforce your beliefs.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#227

Post by pas » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

larrysalibra wrote: post #214

shell0x wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a good read. It's interesting that you decided to stay in HK after the protests/hostile takeover in 2020. My partner and friends all left HK for the UK, Australia, and Canada.

Thanks for reading! The stay versus go debate in HK is always very interesting and one that has been going on for decades and will no doubt continue for many people.

What's the tipping point for you? (Or possible lines in the sand?)

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#228

Post by vgatherps » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:10 PM UTC

alephnan wrote: post #208

hnthrwy1111 wrote: post #185

I'm an "accidental American" who has navigated this issue and it's incredibly easy. Just don't file. Every professional that writes blogs about this has a professional duty to give legal advice but the practical advice is just don't file. Look into what exactly triggers data to be sent to the IRS under your tax treaty and the policies of your financial institutions. Being "accidental" is the key here. If you tell you…

> You have a duty not to comply. If you're making income in America, you owe US tax taxes. If you are a permanent resident of the United States, you owe US taxes. Whether the IRS is using mafia tactics or not, what you are describing is tax evasion. There are legal ways to minimize your tax burden, but this is horrible advise.

This comment isn't about somebody living in America. This is about somebody who doesn't live in america, has never lived there, doesn't have a passport, but are considered "american" by the IRS - somebody born in the USA to non-citizen parents while traveling for example.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#229

Post by hehetrthrthrjn » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

baxuz wrote: post #110

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

I don't see how wealth has much to do with it. It's a question of citizenship and taxes. The other extreme is what we currently have in Croatia: A vast group of people who don't live here have citizenship and they express their patriotism by voting for the conservative right without exception for the past 30 years. If you want to be treated as a citizen — live here and pay your taxes. If you don't, the door's that wa…

For a bit of context, there is a bit of 'tension' between in-country Croatians and expats. Generally the latter left for greener pastures and the former stuck it out through communist rule and the war. There are at least as many Croatian expats as not.

The expats usually left because they didn't like the strictures or ideology of communism. Some had property confiscated and/or were harrassed by the authorities for whatever reason. Most of these people have a reflexive aversion of the left and are reliable right wing voters.

Those who stayed seem to be those that agree with communism to whatever degree, who were part of the communist regime in some way or those that did not mind or did not have the means or will to leave. Some have been indoctrinated to some extent, or maybe more correctly they have grown up in the culture of that time.

Many ordinary people suffered from a relatively poor quality of life under communism. Croatians received a relatively smaller share of resources and opportunities because of Serbian dominance of Yugoslavian government.

The differences are not all or even mostly political. Many locals just resent expats who avoided the misery and show up with money and a particular attitude, usually a critical one as to the dysfunction and corruption in Croatia, amongst other criticisms.

Full disclosure: I'm an expat (who lives in Croatia, for now), so that may colour my view.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#230

Post by robjan » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 2:11 PM UTC

yardie wrote: post #131

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

> 90% of investment firms These must be very small meat and potatoes investment firms then. They might not have a compliance department and might not be able to justify the salary of having someone tackle FATCA requirements. I, as an American abroad primarily used the big banks (HSBC, BNP, Barkleys) because its built in to the service.

HSBC Hong Kong does not accept US citizens or green card holders to open an investment account.