Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship • Hacker News Board

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#141

Post by amilios » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

ninja3925 wrote: post #23

amcoastal wrote: post #3

Its really a great system we have here --- get insanely wealthy off the backs of Americans who pay tons more for basic services and then when it's time to pay back run off and keep your change. No wonder America is doing so well.

“Off the back” sounds like the wealthy took advantage of folks when, in fact, they entered voluntary contracts in a win-win scenario. Creating a company is not exploitative but rather collaborative and mutually beneficial (with workers).

This is a fantasy. Voluntary contracts imply that workers have the option of not working for starvation wages, which in many cases is simply not true. If your options are to work a dead-end minwage job or, well, die on the street, is it really a voluntary contract that you're entering? I would say not.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#142

Post by marcyb5st » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

sec400 wrote: post #81

fourthwaveska wrote: post #44

By most western standards my family teeters on the line between middle and upper middle clas. We sold all of our US property last year; and now we are shopping for 4-6 unit buildings within 100km of Barcelona to get our Golden Visas. Our goal is to get citizenship and access to the EU then renouncing my US citizenship. It isnt about money, I am juwt ashamed to have an American passport and know my tax dollars are bei…

Greece + Italy golden visas also worth taking a look at.

Yes! Also, not tied to golden visas, but in Italy we have this going on: https://1eurohouses.com/ . It is legit and not the classic Italian scam (it's sanctioned by the government).

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#143

Post by ilammy » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #61

Wow. Eric Schmidt, Cyrpruscian. Cypricite? Cyprosii? The real question here is what the context and amounts of money involved are. % figures in small numbers are useless, a few billion dollars means nothing to America. It isn't even clear to me that this is evidence the "people will stay, even if taxes rise!" crowd have to admit a mistake. And the US has declared a War Against American Citizens Investing in Foreign C…

> Cyrpruscian. Cypricite? Cyprosii?

Cypriot.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#144

Post by danmaz74 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

baxuz wrote: post #110

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

I don't see how wealth has much to do with it. It's a question of citizenship and taxes. The other extreme is what we currently have in Croatia: A vast group of people who don't live here have citizenship and they express their patriotism by voting for the conservative right without exception for the past 30 years. If you want to be treated as a citizen — live here and pay your taxes. If you don't, the door's that wa…

If you're Italian and living abroad, you can vote to elect one of the few members of parliament which actually represent migrated Italians. This way they can still have a bit of representation, but without the same amount of influence as if they were living in the country.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#145

Post by alephnan » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

aabaker99 wrote: post #112

alephnan wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while simultaneously holding most of the influence. There are 20 million millionaires in the states. This is not even 10,000 people year over year with assets, not even net worth, over $2 million. This is a tiny fraction of the population, most of whom are contrarian or pursue an alternative lifestyle, given that they are living abroad. I would hardly call someone with $2 million as having outsized influenced, they…

Unless there are more than 20 million millionaires, you're talking about the top 6 percent of the wealth distribution. I wouldn't call that particular percentile "barely middle class". That term probably should be reserved for the 60th percentile, no? Middle being 60 to 40? 70 to 30? Edit: fixed my percentile thanks to child comment!

> "barely middle class".

Inflation. Being a millionaire or having a six figure salaries used to have much more weight during the 80s.

Pretty much any senior level engineer at FANG can be a millionaire if they saved, but they can barely afford a standalone home in San Francisco. What does the term 'middle class' even mean if they can't afford a home?

Only 20% of millionaires surveyed feel they're rich.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/net-worth-to-be-considered-w...

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#146

Post by luffapi » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #52

Of course they are. When the dominant narrative is that America is a racist hellscape, built on oppression and plunder then things like patriotism and civic spirit seem absurd, quaint notions, ripe for ridicule.

That’s not the “dominant narrative”, it’s historical fact. Slavery, segregation and genocide of Native Americans aren’t fabricated stories, they actually happened.

Patriotism is for fools. Civil spirit starts with not rejecting citizenship for tax reasons.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#147

Post by Chris2048 » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

What's unfair isn't this practise per-say, but the fact that it's not equal.

I think keeping hold of foreign citizenship represents an unfair advantage to some degree, as a kind of "fallback" - e.g. if things go to shit you always have the option of returning home.

but other nationalities generally don't need to pay to remain citizens while they are abroad, so Americans are treated unusually.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#148

Post by trutannus » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

alephnan wrote: post #11

altcognito wrote: post #2

They’ve been allowed for decades to avoid paying for the infrastructure and management of the country while simultaneously holding most of the influence. “Renouncing citizenship” means they’ll give up none of the influence, lose the taxes, live how and wherever they want. The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country nor to hold controlling interest in any company in the US. Faced with actual conseque…

> while simultaneously holding most of the influence. There are 20 million millionaires in the states. This is not even 10,000 people year over year with assets, not even net worth, over $2 million. This is a tiny fraction of the population, most of whom are contrarian or pursue an alternative lifestyle, given that they are living abroad. I would hardly call someone with $2 million as having outsized influenced, they…

> The best thing to do is forbid them re-entry into the country

Given the track-record lefty authoritarianism has, I'm always a little nauseated to see people pull out the truncheon and jack-boots to enforce "economic justice". That and suggestions like this don't even make any sense, and rarely ever do. It always looks to me like retribution is the aim here, rather than effective economic policy.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#149

Post by EE84M3i » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

tazjin wrote: post #70

academia_hack wrote: post #42

It's so irritating to be an American that has moved overseas. Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else, just because of where you were born. Thanks to IRS regulations, 90% of investment firms will just reject me outright rather than deal with the paperwork. Getting someone to help file my inordinately complex taxes costs thousands of dollars more than I act…

> Basically the only country in the world that charges taxes on money you make and spend somewhere else I believe Eritrea does this, too. They don't have as much political power as the US though, so they resort to torturing your remaining family members in the country to get you to comply.

Hmm, I seem to recall hearing Australians also have complicated rules about being an "Australian resident for tax purposes" that is not the same as an Australian resident for other purposes, especially when you don't have Permanent Residence/Green Card and are on a time-limited visa (even if it's years long). So they don't technically fall into the "America and Eritrea" bad list, but still tax many Australians abroad. I forget the exact details though.

Re: Wealthy people are renouncing American citizenship

#150

Post by trainsplanes » Thu, Aug 05, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #95

amcoastal wrote: post #3

Its really a great system we have here --- get insanely wealthy off the backs of Americans who pay tons more for basic services and then when it's time to pay back run off and keep your change. No wonder America is doing so well.

America has one of the most progressive tax system of any country. https://taxfoundation.org/summary-of-the-latest-federal-inco... >The top 1 percent paid a greater share of individual income taxes (38.5 percent) than the bottom 90 percent combined (29.9 percent). IMO, this is one of this is why the American government seems so bad at spending money. It's not their money, so there's little incentive to care if it's m…

What percent of wealth does the top 1% possess vs the bottom 90 percent combined?

Wikipedia says the top 1% possesses precisely 38.5% of the country's wealth, so it's more than reasonable that they shoulder at least 38.5% of the taxes. [1] This stat is also from 2016. That divide has grown immensely these past few years.

The stat the Tax Foundation presents is made to make us sympathetic towards people who control basically the entire nation's wealth and pay, frankly, very little. There's a reason they're not putting their wealth in the EU or developed Asian countries--they'd be paying more.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_inequality_in_the_Unite...