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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#921

Post by dredmorbius »

gr1zzlybe4r wrote: post #203
Daishiman wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but the whole "let people make their own decisions" is BS. Making epidemiological decisions isn't something that most people are qualified to do. I have seen the takes from random people and 99% of them are abject garbage.

The science around covid has been fluid this entire time. We aren't even sure if these vaccines will work against other covid variants in the future. What makes anyone qualified to make decisions over someone else's choice of what they should put in their body? If the vaccines are effective, then you can make the choice if you feel comfortable getting them and then being around other people. I don't even think people…

Science has been fluid ... as additional facts, experience, data, and expertise are gained.

The science-denying objections to the science has been ... remarkably consistent in shrillness, interneal inconsistency, and studied refusal to accept facts and demonstrated evidence.

So there's that.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#922

Post by forcry »

op00to wrote: post #819
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This ignores that willingly spreading the virus hurts the efficacy of the vaccine.

>This ignores that willingly spreading the virus hurts the efficacy of the vaccine.

I don't think that is how "efficacy" works, because to measure "efficacy" both the treatment and population is supposed to have similar exposure to the virus.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#923

Post by forcry »

admax88q wrote: post #115
gizmo wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simple. If you're vaccinated you shouldn't care whether other people in the restaurant are. That's the point of vaccination after all. And if you're not vaccinated obviously you're not going to be in favor of this new mandate. The people who support policies like these are vaccin efficacy denialists, petty tyrants, and doomers of various sorts. And there are good reasons to not want to live in a "papers please"…

That's not the point of vaccination. A group of people in a room all vaccinated is safer than a group of people half vaccinated. The vaccine is not a boolean on off switch, it's a percentage wise improvement over nothing, and it compounds when those around are also vaccinated.

> That's not the point of vaccination.

Please provide some citation for this outrageous claim that the point of a vaccine is to NOT provide immunity from infection.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#924

Post by fredros »

maxerickson wrote: post #778
timr wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

You don't have a basic human right to go into buildings that other people own.

But you have the right to invite people into buildings you own, right ?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#925

Post by forcry »

__m wrote: post #151
tomp wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4) You oppose tyranny. People should be free to make their own choices. By going out unvaccinated, I'm not putting anyone in danger, except those who choose to be endangered (not isolating / sheltering at home, unmasked, unvaccinated). 5) You oppose discrimination. I'm immune but not vaccinated. Where's my immunity certificate?

I want to drive a car without the tyranny of speed limits, I’m not putting anyone in danger except those who choose to be endangered (driving a car, walking a street). I oppose discrimination. I know how to drive a car, where is my driver’s license?

I think if you build your own roads, then you are free do drive a car at what ever speed you wish. Since the state has laid down roads, it makes some sense for the state to put speed limits in place for what ever reason.

But state didn't own anyone's body, so the state really have no right to force vaccinations.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#926

Post by forcry »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #20
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

> Unless, of course, you think that the vaccine is more dangerous than coronavirus. And then I don't really know what to say. There are vast demographics for which this is actually the case. Children under 18, for example. If you think these passports will only ever be used to check for Covid vaccination status, or that they'll be rolled back once Covid is no longer killing appreciable numbers of people, you're as gu…

But..but..CDC will protect me from any evils of pharma companies, right?....Right?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#927

Post by forcry »

deft wrote: post #653
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This is one of the strangest comments here, but you're trying to be rational while breaking down the vast majority of the worldwide population into one of 3 positions? You know most places don't have these mandates and never will? And things will be fine.

Of course, the fourth position is so dumb (that it is possible that someone can have low trust in authorities/scientists) that they don't know what to say..

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#928

Post by forcry »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

> Unless, of course, you think that the vaccine is more dangerous than coronavirus.

Do you have the answer to the following questions?

Why did the mRNA technology remain unapproved for a long time since its inception?

What exactly was relaxed in the approval process that lead to its EUA?

Since the vaccine has been used population wide, will the missed studies or what ever due process eventually be done? Or will they be skipped, citing the real world usage (which was not controlled or followed up in a systematic manner)?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#929

Post by forcry »

wwweston wrote: post #709
timr wrote: post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

> an overall risk of illness and death that is on par with every other year I have been alive. The excess death statistics would like to have a word with you, but more importantly: > If I ever become so afraid of death that I demand that other people give up their basic human rights Are basic human rights really what we're talking about here? If so, they've always had limits when it came to impacts on others. The fre…

>the freedom to spread certain pathogens might end there as well.

There is a false equivalence here that freedom to opt-out of a commercial product, is excising one's freedom to "spread diseases".

To make it clear, would you want to pass a law that prevents someone with a genetic defect from marrying and having children? Because they would be "spreading" generic disorders, and by having offspring, they are "exercising their freedom to spread a genetic disorder", right?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#930

Post by CryptoPunk »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Isn't one of the merits of a policy, whether it is, or isn't tyrannical?
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