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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#871
post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

> an overall risk of illness and death that is on par with every other year I have been alive. The excess death statistics would like to have a word with you, but more importantly: > If I ever become so afraid of death that I demand that other people give up their basic human rights Are basic human rights really what we're talking about here? If so, they've always had limits when it came to impacts on others. The fre…

> The excess death statistics would like to have a word with you,

I think you're misunderstanding the conversation. The thread is talking about the risk _to vaccinated people_. What excess death statistics are you thinking of that show a categorical increase in risk for those vaccinated?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#872

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won’t there always be a variant popping up somewhere in some part of the world though? The idea that “if we all got vaccinated, we could have zero variants” reeks of “zero COVID” thinking

the dynamic is a feedback loop in either direction. More vaccinations means slowdown of spread which means slower rate of mutation and in turn easier ways to control the virus. Faster transmission means faster rate of mutations and having a harder time controlling the virus. 'Zero covid' or near-zero covid anyway does not 'reek' because it is perfectly attainable. The virus could be squashed pretty much completely. T…

>The virus could be squashed pretty much completely.

In Korea, we tried, succeeded for a couple of weeks, then failed.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#873

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The supreme court ruled that it's legal to mandate vaccinations in 1905. Boston fined people for not getting a smallpox vaccine. This seems like a better option to me. Don't want to get vaccinated? Fine. Have a valid medical reason, pay a $2500 fee, or leave the city. >90% of people will just get vaccinated.

The result of this would be that many black and latino residents in, for example, the Bronx, would be fined more than they can afford or literally expelled from NYC.

I think there should be federally mandated sick leave for getting the vaccine cuz yeah if you're hourly and get this shot you are paying for it in lost revenue.

So let's make the policy be "you get $500 to get the vaccine or get a doctor's note saying why not. If not you pay a fine". Yeah Bezos gets it (that's why you tax rich people more than poor people, to get the money back later).

Now do you have a problem with this policy?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#874
It's horrible how confident and grandstanding the NYC government is of their own policy:

“A strong stance needs to be taken,” the lawmaker added. “It will be controversial, but your stance — when we look back in history on this one, this will be a defining moment in your government.”

They act like they know what's best, when in fact we have no idea how COVID-19 will evolve in the future or what the efficacy of the current vaccines will be with future variants. Also, we have studies coming out that show natural immunity is stronger than vaccine immunity against future COVID-19 infections. Simply put, this virus is going under evolutionary pressures that nobody can predict.

Having the NYC mayor saying things like, "it’s the only way to protect our people"? Um, you could do lockdowns, mask mandates, social distancing, or IVM. He is trying to incite hatred and war, with words like "We could not have been more kind... The voluntary phase is over". Pretty shameful in my opinion.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#875

Does anyone believe this will be expanded to grocery stores, pharmacies and other basic services come fall? My job is already close to pushing mandatory vaccination and I'm trying to decide whether I should pack up my things and leave? 30 year resident and heartbroken.

Do you really believe that mandatory vaccination is the start of some expansion of government checking on everything? I'm seriously asking, like you already need a drivers license to drive, you put in taxes and the government keeps those in a central database, if you have kids in school they need to be vaccinated in most places I read in this thread. Why would covid vaccination suddenly trigger some government panopt…

If this is a good faith question that's fine. A health passport to buy groceries is the hill to die on because you are consenting to a lifetime of injections just to live.

No one should be under the impression that the next booster won't be mandated. You give these people an inch and they take a mile.

And it's also not a government thing. I would think that the White House is upset with New York's decision because they preferred private business restrict access to the unvaccinated, New York might have jumped the gun, revealed the play etc.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#876
There's a book called why the West still rules and in it it talks about the history of human civilization and discusses the idea that there are sort of theories that can predict the major directions and major players at each stage of history as the meaning of technology and geography alters over time in response to the level of development and interconnectedness of society.

In that book there's this concept called the advantages of backwardness and it's this thing that crops up often after a crisis where the previous major player, having collapsed as a result of whatever forces brought them down, surrender some of their former glory to previously more backward regions whose backwards methods, in the new climate or situation, set them up for success.

Here's a quote from Ian Morris the book's author discussing the advantages of backwardness in an interview:

"And as cities, states, and industry spread, they entered new geographical niches where the old ways of doing things didn’t always work. People on these frontiers were forced to tinker, to make old techniques work in new—and eventually better—ways.

The best example might be in the origins of agriculture: Seven-thousand years ago, farming first developed in the hilly lands around the edges of what we now call Iraq. When farmers moved down to the plains of modern Iraq, they found that to make farming work, they had to develop irrigation agriculture.

We saw the same thing happen again with the spread of industry in the 19th century. Industry was invented in the British Isles, but as it spread outward into Germany and North America, people in these places had to create new ways of making industry work successfully. As they did so, Germany and the United States began to replace the British Isles as the center of industry. And we see the same process continuing to work in our own day. In the last 20 years, we’ve seen the meteoric rise of China. We should expect the “advantages of backwardness” to continue being one of the major motors in world history."

The connection with the present topic I think is the following. In a sense we've denied our immune systems the advantages of backwardness by the very same advanced technology we designed to augment and protect them. In other words by rushing to create and deploy a vaccine we've prevented our collective human immune system from cultivating defenses to this virus. In that sense I think the policy from a high-level strategic point of view is a weakness and possibly fundamentally flawed, because it opens the possibility the we've made our immune system dependent on vaccinations to deal with further and related infections in future. The other side of the coin is the advantages of backwardness for the virus: we have applied such a strong selective pressure so universally and quickly that in order for the virus to survive it is forced to evolve to become more transmissible, and possibly more dangerous. The more dangerous point is contentious but I argue it as follows because the more dangerous a variant is is correlated with the strength of our measures against it we are selecting for more dangerous variance to evolve more transmissibility. In effect this could be one of the first times in human history that our advanced technology has seriously thrown a natural system previously in equilibrium, in other words the equilibrium between our collective immune system and the collective microbiome of bacterial viruses on Earth, out of balance. nearly many natural examples of how we've done this but they're localized to particular regions like oil spills or Forest clearing we're throwing ecosystems out of balance left right and center but this might be the first time we've done it on a global scale. (And if we release the prophesized mosquito nuclear bomb that's going to wipe out mosquitoes around the world that will be another example of throwing a global ecosystem out of balance). In this pandemic topic, as we keep throwing more fuel at that fire thinking we're solving the problem we may end up simply be providing fuel for future conflagrations that could lead to our collective demise.

I don't want to be too dramatic here and I admit the choice of words has a little bit of that effect but we are talking about a massive global scale thing which we are right to take it seriously and while there may be many motivations for getting a large proportion of the world vaccinated, this line of thinking is not one I've seen elaborated very much so I wanted to add it here.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#877

It's horrible how confident and grandstanding the NYC government is of their own policy: “A strong stance needs to be taken,” the lawmaker added. “It will be controversial, but your stance — when we look back in history on this one, this will be a defining moment in your government.” They act like they know what's best, when in fact we have no idea how COVID-19 will evolve in the future or what the efficacy of the cu…

> we have studies coming out that show natural immunity is stronger than vaccine immunity against future COVID-19 infections

Which... studies? As far as I've seen the opposite is true.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#878
post #659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should have. Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous. Maybe this finally shakes people awake and puts public health and safety to the top of the agenda rather than people throwing tantrums like children about government incursion. You can certainly go down this p…

> an overall risk of illness and death that is on par with every other year I have been alive. The excess death statistics would like to have a word with you, but more importantly: > If I ever become so afraid of death that I demand that other people give up their basic human rights Are basic human rights really what we're talking about here? If so, they've always had limits when it came to impacts on others. The fre…

Are basic human rights really what we're talking about here?

If so, they've always had limits when it came to impacts on others. The freedom to swing your fist ends at the tip of someone's nose

Whoa, you've got that horridly twisted.

It's not a human right to demand that others undergo a medical procedure for your own perceived interest. It's not a human right to demand others undergo a medical procedure, or be injected with something, because you've been told it will benefit you in some way. Every individual has complete choice and autonomy as to the medical procedures they undergo. That is the human right.

>Article 6 – Consent

1. Any preventive, diagnostic and therapeutic medical intervention is only to be carried out with the prior, free and informed consent of the person concerned, based on adequate information. The consent should, where appropriate, be express and may be withdrawn by the person concerned at any time and for any reason without disadvantage or prejudice.

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=31058&URL_DO=DO_TO...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#879
post #129
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

I don't think you know many anti-vax people if you think education is the answer. Every one I've met is completely unwilling to look at data coming out, and instead relies solely on headlines they've read that are usually incomplete or outright wrong.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#880

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former New Yorker... people should vote with their wallets and their feet . New York has become a pretty miserable place to live. And for the privilege of living in a miserable place you pay an exorbitant amount.

One idea i've been musing for a while is that much American grief (high prices, archaic governments etc) seems to stem from a lack of new cities. Say austin is the new hotness, settled in 1800s. What about building a 2000s friendly city in the middle of nowhere and not limiting ourselves to the decisions made in 1800s like where's the water and walking/horse is the only mode of transport?

Pretty much any suburb around Austin meets that description.
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