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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#761

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "zero covid spaces" As a tangent, I wish we would get rid of this "zero covid spaces" mania, makes having a reasonable discussion between those who want to continue our lives as normal as possible given the circumstances (I am one of them) and those who want to get back to an illusory "pre-covid normal" basically impossible. One of my grand-mothers died of tuberculosis about 10 years ago. Imo it's as nasty a death…

The U.S. only has around 600 deaths from TB per year. Covid was 100x more deaths with lockdowns and other restrictions factored in. Not even remotely the same thing.

>The U.S. only has around 600 deaths from TB per year. Covid was 100x more deaths with lockdowns and other restrictions factored in.

Actually, COVID has been 1000x more deaths, not 100x.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#762
post #427
post #94

By not getting vaccinated you are pushing the onus of responsibility to society. When you occupy a bed in a hospital for a preventable disease (like covid post-vaccine) you are a detriment to society. You are occupying precious resources because you were dumb. Just dumb. No ifs or buts - we need to start calling out stupidity again. We already handle people occupying hospital resources with self inflicted diseases, l…

"Precious resources" - the narrative was that the resources _were_ precious and we needed "two weeks to slow the spread." Why are these resources somehow "precious" two years later? Where was the ventilator production? Staffing? If this were such a serious issue, what have we been doing?

Not an anti-vaxxer but I agree with you given we'll prob never get rid of covid, and if we somehow manage to mobilize the entire planet to support one unified lifestyle change in any meaningful timeframe, that'd be an extremely radical event in the course of human history, as far as I understand, so I'm not betting on that either. I think you're right to point out that society needs to support the existence of covid beyond vaccine mandates.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#763
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever the numbers are, you are balancing a minuscule risk against another minuscule risk. That's not going to be a convincing argument.

> Whatever the numbers are, you are balancing a minuscule risk against another minuscule risk. That's not going to be a convincing argument. The rate of complications from COVID-19 infections among people in their 20s is absolutely not "minuscule".

Can you find a reliable number to share on what the complication rate actually is? The best I can find is that the death rate in CA for 18-34 year olds is quite low - something like 0.07% [1].

[1] https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/COV...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#764

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People know. They know, if anything, because you need to be vaccinated to attend colleges. The issue is that this vaccine is not FDA approved. A vaccine that provides for only a year is hardly the same as a booster shot which is good for 10 iirc.

It’s time to move these vaccines up into regular approval, for a variety of reasons. This is probably the most scrutinized vaccine ever , keeping it in emergency use is mistake. > A vaccine that provides for only a year is hardly the same as a booster shot which is good for 10 iirc. As compared to the flu shot? The one that I’ve been given for free in every school and workplace I’ve attended in the past twenty years?…

> This is probably the most scrutinized vaccine ever

Not in terms of long term data, at all

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#765

A bit off topic but you know what’s really jarring for me? For the past ten years I’ve agreed with the majority on hacker news on almost every issue. Software patents, voting rights, who knows what else. Everyone seemed to just find the right answer and it made sense. Then all of a sudden I’m in tiny minority because I believe people should be able to choose what they put in their own bodies. It really feels like a t…

Interestingly, this thread has got me surprised that there are so many vaccine skeptics or people that have such a deep mistrust in these vaccination incentives.

You do have a right to choose. This isn’t a vaccine mandate. It’s the vaccinated asking to be separated from unvaccinated individuals in high risk places of recreation (restaurants, movie theaters, gyms, and large venues). Meanwhile, mask mandates will likely stay in place for places where it isn’t possible or important to separate the vaccinated and unvaccinated (grocery stores, MTA, healthcare settings, the great outdoors). To avoid antagonizing the unvaccinated and reducing spread for high risk individuals that don’t have a choice, grocery stores are requiring masks for everyone still.

So what are people so in arms about? Overreaching? This isn't (legal, ethical) overreaching, this is using data to drive the economy forward without killing people in ways that have been supported by the courts for almost a century. The more we reduce cases, the less likely we get a variant that’s worse than Delta.

While we’re discussing gripes, the states that were in staunch opposition to mandatory vaccines (*and masks*) are the ones that reopened the earliest and with the highest cases. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Read stories from people who are on their death bed from COVID, some ask for the vaccine (it’s too late), others still deny that it could have saved their lives.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#766
post #197

Vaccine requirements have been in place for decades. For pre-K in NYC kids need shots for PCV and Hib. For kindergarten they need more shots: Hep B, Polio, Chickenpox, and Measles, Mumps and Rubella. Going to middle school? Then you'll need more shots, the TDAP and meningococcal conjugate. These are all vaccine requirements. Is it an invasion or privacy to demand children's records? Is it the nanny state? We could go…

Early (i.e. existing) Covid vaccines are NON-STERILIZING, unlike almost every vaccine given to kids. There are sterilizing Covid vaccines in development, e,g. delivered nasally directly to the upper respiratory tract, but none have yet reached the market.

https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=243127

> To be sterilizing a vaccine must prevent infection. Since you never get infected you never replicate the virus and thus do not shed it. If you do not shed it the potential path of the viral life-cycle for that particular infection ends with you and thus you cannot pass on or cause a mutation. You are sterile against that disease; from the point of view of the virus you are a lifeless rock. Among commonly-used sterilizing vaccines are MMR (measles, mumps and rubella), Varicella (chicken pox), OPV (oral polio) and others. The only time that such a vaccine fails is when you do not build immunity (such as due to immune compromise.) This is extremely rare and the protection from such vaccines tends to be either decades-long or lifetime.

> A vaccine that is not sterilizing permits the virus to infect you and replicate and as a result you can infect others. Technically it is not a vaccine at all (which by definition prevents infection); it is a prophylactic therapy. Such a "vaccine" instead acts to reduce or eliminate symptomatic disease. You don't know you're sick and you don't get sick. You don't go to the hospital and you don't die. Unfortunately since you don't know you're sick but are infected and the virus is both replicating in you and shedding you are more-likely to spread the infection to others. All of the current Covid jabs are in this category and so is, for that matter IPV (injected polio vaccine -- the original Salk discovery.)

> During the original vaccine trials in the summer and fall of 2020 they deliberately did not test any of the recipients for asymptomatic infections. Only a person who developed a significant illness was tested. This has continued post roll-out with the CDC specifying that a close contact of a known case who was vaccinated did not need to quarantine or be tested until and unless they became symptomatic. They knew damn well, in other words, that the jabs were not sterilizing but did not want that data up for public debate because then those who have read history would be likely to make the connection to the present day and thus they did their level best to hide it. That has now blown up in their face with it being conclusively known that jabbed people in fact not only get infected but spread the virus to others.

> ... natural infection with Covid-19 is sterilizing. Being infected and recovering conserves the nasal and respiratory mucosal response which is where the virus enters the body.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#767
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#768
post #427
post #94

By not getting vaccinated you are pushing the onus of responsibility to society. When you occupy a bed in a hospital for a preventable disease (like covid post-vaccine) you are a detriment to society. You are occupying precious resources because you were dumb. Just dumb. No ifs or buts - we need to start calling out stupidity again. We already handle people occupying hospital resources with self inflicted diseases, l…

"Precious resources" - the narrative was that the resources _were_ precious and we needed "two weeks to slow the spread." Why are these resources somehow "precious" two years later? Where was the ventilator production? Staffing? If this were such a serious issue, what have we been doing?

The previous resources isn’t the ventilators themselves anymore, it’s hospital beds and healthcare staff. Especially healthcare staff.

We’re almost done with the restrictions here in Denmark. You know why? Because people got vaccinated and because we required proof of a test or vaccination to keep the spread down while we were building herd immunity.

It’ll be rich when all that effort was wasted because some new strain mutates in western countries that were full of adult babies.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#769
You can still transmit the disease after getting vaccinated. Maybe if it was like the flu vaccine I'd understand, but it's not. I much prefer the mask mandate and the mask mandate is the only thing that makes sense, at least until they come out with a better vaccine. As it stands right now you have people getting the vaccine lulling themselves into the belief that they can't transmit to anyone, it's impossible to know the stats but easy to see it is just as bad as people who don't have symptoms thinking they don't have the disease and can't spread it.

If the goal is still seemingly to cut down spread this law does absolutely nothing but increase hubris and cause more cases as more people walk around without a mask. Walked into a CVS the other day and both the clerk and some customers had no mask on simply because they got the vaccine. So I'll stick with my mask for now.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#770
post #129
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. And literally anyone who wants a vaccine can get one. Those who choose not to get vaccinated are making a risk calculation; they are making a choice.

There are immuno-compromised people who can't get the vaccine for health reasons. By accepting a lack of herd immunity you are throwing those people under the bus. If you are worried about impacts on minority populations then this is something you surely must be considering.

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