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Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

latimes.com

341–350 of 404 posts

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#341

As a non-American person living in the US, I fail to understand one thing about its society. When I walk around town I see tons and tons of places advertising jobs, for simple stuff like kitchen, moving stuff around, etc. I even recently saw a store with a "talk to the manager and start working right now" sign. And then I walk around the streets and see all these homeless. It seems like a paradox to me, but I am obvi…

There’s no single answer, but:

1.) A lot of the visibly homeless population suffers from either mental illness, drug addiction or both. The statistics I’ve seen for cities on the west coast put it at approximately 40% for mental illness and a similar percentage for addiction. These are self reported numbers, so they are probably under reported.

2.) Related to #1, good mental healthcare is very hard to come by in the United States, especially if you are poor. In the 80s the federal government cut funding drastically, leaving it up to individual states to cover the gap. Most didn’t and have continued to cut budgets even further in the ensuing years.

3.) Related to #2, the Deinstitutionalization movement successfully fought for the rights of the mentally ill, but there were unintended consequences. Right now it is extraordinarily difficult to convince a judge to commit someone to long term, in-patient psychiatric care unless they present an immediate threat to themselves or others. In practice, this turns out to be very difficult to prove. In most cases, if the person can’t be proven to about to commit murder or suicide in the next few hours, they won’t be committed against their will.

4.) Most states have closed all but a one or two state psychiatric hospitals, which is where people with severe mental illness used to be housed. The theory was that states would build community integrated outpatient care facilities, but many of them didn’t. As a result, many long term psychiatric patients were turned loose with nowhere to go, and became homeless. Also, now that those facilities are closed, when a judge does decide to commit someone, there’s often nowhere for them to go. In the state I live in, the only remaining state psychiatric hospital hasn’t had an available bed in years.

5.) Related to #3 and 4, jails have become our defacto mental health treatment facilities because there’s nowhere else available. As a result, a lot of people who should have been take into care end up with a rap sheet, which shows up on background checks, and makes it difficult to obtain housing or jobs. The same is true for people who are not mentally ill, but have drug addictions.

6.) There’s a lot more supporting infrastructure necessary to allow you to go to work than you’d think. At bare minimum, you need an alarm clock to wake you up in time, you need some basic hygiene and grooming capabilities, and you need to feel reasonably confident that when you walk away from your home to go to work, your things won’t be stolen. A person living in a tent has none of those things. A person living in a shelter might have some of them, but if they leave their stuff unattended it’s almost certain to get stolen. They may be able to take a shower or wash their clothes, but probably not on the same day, and not more than once a week. Regardless of when their shift starts, most shelters have strict curfews, which means that a person staying there can’t work non-traditional hours. Space in the shelters is often first come first served, so if you miss the bus and don’t make it back to the shelter on time, they’re likely to be full and you’re back on the street. It’s very difficult to establish stability using the shelter system.

Finally, you asked why people who don’t have jobs don’t live with their families. A lot of the time it’s because they have untreated or poorly treated mental illness that makes living with them incredibly difficult. Nobody likes to talk about it, but families who have severely mentally ill members in the United States are often forced to make the heartbreaking choice between their own sanity and the wellbeing of their family member. The same is true for people suffering from drug addiction. Sometimes you have to choose your own sanity, or you’ll be on the streets too.

Hopefully that helps you understand what you’re seeing better.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#342
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the reach for Amdahl's Law, but it's about how fast you can speed something up by doing it in parallel, isn't it? What's to say someone else can't be eliminating the other classes of homelessness in parallel, making the problem effectively embarrassingly parallelizable?

> What's to say someone else can't be eliminating the other classes of homelessness in parallel You both can and must address everything in parallel to actually dent the "homeless problem". That's the point. Let's say there are 5 primary classes of homeless. Even if you take one of them and reduce it to zero (and you will never accomplish this)--you're still left with 80% of the problem. Only now the people approving…

Hmm. My takeaway from Amdahl's Law is that if one has a parallelizable problem, one can keep throwing processors at it, but eventually there is a slice of overall work that cannot be parallelized. Stepping back and refreshing myself on Amdahl's Law, I can see how this relates to Amdahl's Law. I like it.

Anyway, I agree with your general sentiment, and it tickles my mind. Thank you!

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not of the Left. So you know where I'm come from. That said people who are living on the street are frequently deeply alone in way that can be hard to understand. Substance abuse problems. Mental problems. Sure all of that. No place to live too. All of that's a huge burden. On top of that the jobs that get listed are frequently not going to be offering 30 hours or less a week. So the way to think of people in tha…

I don't want to discount the challenges and pain associated with being homeless but your observations don't really explain the explosion of homelessness in some places. Something else has changed in the last 4-5 years to make this problem much worse.

If you mean the West Coast, it was the 9th Circuit court ruling in Martin v. Boise that brought about the visible camping. That ruling states that a city can’t penalize someone for sleeping in public if they can’t provide a meaningful alternative. Most West Coast cities don’t have nearly enough shelter space available, and they have interpreted the ruling to mean that they cannot enforce camping bans at all - presumably to reduce the risk of being sued.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#344
post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The market is making the ration decision. The city could always buy the expensive real estate and turn it into slums—sorry, "affordable housing"—but this is clearly not a reasonable allocation of limited resources. No one is saying these need to be city owned properties. The market is making the profit optimizing decision. Regulation can but restrictions on developers and force them to build affordable housing that…

> No one is saying these need to be city owned properties. … Regulation can but restrictions on developers and force them to build affordable housing that would still be profitable just not the absolutely most profitable option. That's just the city seizing developers' property for public use without compensation. Buying the property would give the city moral authority to decide how it's used, while also accurately t…

>That's just the city seizing developers' property for public use without compensation.

How is it seizing property? It is just putting in restrictions that reduce the possible profit. It is no different than thousands of other regulations. Is forcing a developer to put fire sprinklers in buildings "seizing property"?

>Then maybe we need to consider that not everyone needs to live (or work) in Los Angeles. If your LA job doesn't pay enough to afford unsubsidized housing in LA then you're basically working for free, at best.

How do you combine this with your opposition to a minimum wage? Who is supposed to do the less desirable jobs in LA if no one doing those jobs can afford to live there?

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#345

As a non-American person living in the US, I fail to understand one thing about its society. When I walk around town I see tons and tons of places advertising jobs, for simple stuff like kitchen, moving stuff around, etc. I even recently saw a store with a "talk to the manager and start working right now" sign. And then I walk around the streets and see all these homeless. It seems like a paradox to me, but I am obvi…

What you're seeing in this thread about how is a person by themselves supposed to be clean for an interview, have an address for a check, get housing on minimum wage in San Francisco, etc. is missing the point. 70%+ of people who are homeless climb out it, proving that it is possible (despite the aforementioned resource challenges -- that's almost tautological to what being poor is). Those who don't and remain chroni…

> What's more unique to the U.S. is that for large swathes of people, their family has totally washed their hands of their responsibility. Compared to poor authoritarian countries that's probably because in those countries, families know their loved ones will die if they are left out on their own with no help.

Or, if I take your comments to their invalid conclusion, other countries let their homeless die--thus solving their homeless problem.

And why should somebody's drug addled parent be the responsibility of the child? The child didn't make those choices--and probably has their own damage from the parent to boot.

Finally, if someone has dementia, God help you if you don't have money because no one else will. People with dementia often require 24/7 care--how are you supposed to go to your job if you are doing that?

How about instead of just shuffling the problem onto "family" that is horribly ill-equipped for dealing with most of these situations, we start as a society helping people to deal with these things.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have they’re called homeless shelters. Cities shouldn’t actively endorse camping by marking areas and if you think they should would you like to volunteer the streets outside and surrounding your house. Homeless people should be interviewed and those with mental illnesses treated by the state as they are objectively sick people in need of help. Homeless people under 18 should be taken into care. Homeless people…

Many cities have inadequate shelters. And shelters have many restrictions encampments don't.[1] [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28067093

Beggars can't be choosers is an aphorism for a reason.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#347
post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in the best case, homeless shelters have serious downsides (to put it mildly) that you may not have considered. -Have a pet? Not coming with you. A stint at the pound, likely followed by euthanization due to overcrowding. -How about a family? If you can even get into a shelter, odds are it's going to be male or women and children. -Shelters are often unsafe and filled with people who have untreated problems. Vio…

> Shelters are often unsafe and filled with people who have untreated problems. Violence is a real risk. I've always found it a bit ironic when people intending to advocate for better treatment of the homeless proclaim that homeless shelters are havens of violence, full of dangerous people with drug and mental health problems.

> I've always found it a bit ironic when people intending to advocate for better treatment of the homeless proclaim that homeless shelters are havens of violence

This is the equivalent of suggesting that there is irony in the position that one can support animal welfare but still be against the position of beating animals with a stick (rather than an iron bar).

Homeless shelters can be violent. They are certainly full of people with (often untreated) mental illnesses. They are also not a solution to homelessness, but rather a solution to the problem of people sleeping on the street.

Solutions to homelessness often require providing permanent housing to people whom you may not like and who you, personally, may believe do not deserve a "free" apartment or house. It involves giving people a permanent foundation on which they can start to build a post-homelessness life. This is why it is never a popular solution - what I find ironic is that voters who want to "solve" homelessness never actually start with the simplest solution, giving away secure and dignified housing.

A real solution involves notions of security, safety, etc and often requires homeless people, particularly those who have lived homeless for a long time, to unlearn those strategies they have employed in order to survive. Shelters do not provide this type of support.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mental health is a large part of the issue, but sometimes cause and effect can be murky. It's important to note that even the very large visible encampments in cities like SF and LA are the tip of the homelessness iceberg, there's a much larger group of people who are living on friends/relatives couches, in their cars, or in shelters. A lot of these people have some level of employment, but housing affordability (a r…

Having been in this hidden group of homeless myself, I will let you in one one little secret. The land-use restriction argument might apply if you consider all homeless people needing housing, but on an individual level there are vacancies in every region... but they are unavailable for other reasons . Once you strip out the (very visible) addicts and mentally ill, the real reasons for homelessness are: credit score/…

Good lord, yes. I just helped a relative of with poor credit find a place to live and it was only the luck of finding an understanding small time landlord that he isn’t homeless right now. I fear this is only going to get much worse in the future. Lots of places we applied to already automatically rejected him due to his credit score even though I offered to co-sign. Once the whole industry starts using these mechanisms to choose tenants, people with bad credit are screwed.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#350
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Homeless shelters can also help by making it hard for them to continue their drug addictions. They do, and this is sometimes why homeless people avoid the shelters. You cannot hold someone in a shelter against their will.

That’s why my suggestion is to offer them the choice to willingly use a shelter or go to jail. Homelessness and drug abuse can not be allowed to exist to keep public spaces safe.

> That’s why my suggestion is to offer them the choice to willingly use a shelter or go to jail

You can't jail someone for not sheltering themselves. That would most probably violate their civil rights and would not survive a test in the courts.

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