Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk • Hacker News Board

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#231

Post by throwhome2 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

dyingkneepad wrote: post #23

As a non-American person living in the US, I fail to understand one thing about its society. When I walk around town I see tons and tons of places advertising jobs, for simple stuff like kitchen, moving stuff around, etc. I even recently saw a store with a "talk to the manager and start working right now" sign. And then I walk around the streets and see all these homeless. It seems like a paradox to me, but I am obvi…

Nobody wants to admit this, but probably more so here on HN and specially those who will downvote this reply to oblivion and have 10k+ karma points. They will find any excuse to sidestep this as a legitimate issue, here are some to watch out for: a. other countries have a worse homeless problem b. it's because we closed mental health institutions in the 80s c. I was homeless you don't know what you're talking about d. war on drugs is the cause e. you shouldn't judge others maybe they chose this... the list goes on and on and I'm not going to respond to any of them here, just something to be on the look out for when this topic comes up. In the US people don't find the same solidarity with their fellow citizens unless you belong to the same club or same sociopolitical spectrum you basically think you're better than everyone else and there is a deep rooted superiority complex among people here. This is in stark contrast to countries even in Europe including Italy and others where there is a strong sense of community and for example Italianess that supersedes petty political and idealogical beliefs that many in the US cling to almost religiously.

I don't think Americans want to admit this specially the closer to the coastal cities you get the less sense of solidarity with fellow citizens and belongingness prevails rather than more community driven even religious South.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#232

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #219

emodendroket wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very seldom see homeless in Asia or Mexico (I don’t stay in tourist areas). What on earth are you talking about? Even in Japan, famous in the Western imagination for societal cohesion and lack of crime, you can easily spot homeless people sleeping rough in Tokyo. I suppose they do a better job than American cities of keeping the problem out of sight but the idea that there are no homeless people at all in Asia is s…

Seldom doesn’t mean never. Yes, on occasion you come across a homeless person sleeping on the subway steps. But it’s not all urinated over and smelly. And, importantly many will engage in menial jobs, keep up appearances and try to be presentable.

But "seldom" isn't really true either. The subway being cleaner probably has more to do with much higher levels of investment in keeping it clean than with the superior character of their homeless people.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#233

Post by awsthro00945 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #152

backtoyoujim wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What ethic background can the United States subtract from its total homeless population ? Because that reads _to_me_ like you are saying "homeless Syrians don't count". To which I would ask you, "Why not ?"

What I believe he meant is that Syrians who live in a temporary refugee camp are counted as "homeless" by the German statistics office because they live in temporary housing and, hence, do not have a permanent place to live yet. And that statistic counted Germany in 2018, back when ~180000 refugees arrived.

That still leaves the same question, though. In the US, many municipalities designate certain areas as government-sanctioned camping grounds where "economic refugees" can stay while they don't have a permanent place to live. Does that count as "temporary housing" and can we exclude them from the homeless numbers as well?

Massaging the numbers seems silly to me. At it's core, we're talking about how to solve the issue of unhoused people that require government assistance. Syrian refugees were/are an unhoused population that required government assistance. US tent-livers are unhoused populations that require government assistance. It's perfectly acceptable to include them in the same conversation. If the strategies that were applied to helping Syrian refugees find housing can somehow be helpful when helping LA tent-livers find housing, then it should be part of the same conversation.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#234

Post by paulddraper » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

tigertigerbb wrote: post #34

dyingkneepad wrote: post #23

As a non-American person living in the US, I fail to understand one thing about its society. When I walk around town I see tons and tons of places advertising jobs, for simple stuff like kitchen, moving stuff around, etc. I even recently saw a store with a "talk to the manager and start working right now" sign. And then I walk around the streets and see all these homeless. It seems like a paradox to me, but I am obvi…

>Anybody would please be able to point me at what I'm missing? I strongly suspect that this is absolutely the wrong place to ask. I do remember a time without homeless people however.

> I do remember a time without homeless people however.

Oh, you are a bold one.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#235

Post by danans » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

foxpurple wrote: post #175

legitster wrote: post #109

This is becoming such a frustrating issue. As an advocate of public spaces and parks, it's kind of heartbreaking that maybe 1/3 of public spaces in our town are no longer usable for all - they have more or less become private spaces for the homeless. I don't have much respect for communities that solve the issue by just "kicking them out" and passing the problem onto others, but it is almost becoming unacceptably com…

IMO the city should provide enough homeless shelters for everyone and then just make homelessness illegal. So if you are found sleeping in a tent you get referred to the nearest shelter and if you refuse you get arrested. We can not allow homelessness to exist because it makes public spaces unsafe like you mention. Homeless shelters can also help by making it hard for them to continue their drug addictions.

> Homeless shelters can also help by making it hard for them to continue their drug addictions.

They do, and this is sometimes why homeless people avoid the shelters. You cannot hold someone in a shelter against their will.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#236

Post by axaxs » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

mfer wrote: post #168

baby wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same with France. Lived there for most of my life and the US is a culture shock when it comes to homelessness. I’m confused by these numbers.

In some cities there are large concentrations of homeless people while in other parts of the country they are rare to encounter. Those large concentrations are regularly talked about by activists and the news media.

I think this is probably correct. The last time I've even seen an obviously homeless person was in SF, and I haven't been there in 2 years.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#237

Post by bwship » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #191

bwship wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These tent camps are quite new in the US. About 5 years ago, there started to be a tent camp in Seattle, but when I moved to LA there was not tents anywhere (except maybe a few on Skid Row), flash forward to about 2 years ago, and there are now literally miles and miles of tent camps all over Los Angeles. It is one of those things that once it is allowed at all, it quickly becomes overwhelming.

What part of LA are you in? I’ve lived on the west side for the last 13 years and tent camps have been an issue for at least the last 10. They started getting noticeably worse about 5 years ago in line with a rapid rise in the unsheltered population [1]. [1] http://www.laalmanac.com/social/so14.php

I was on the west side. Yea, there were a few tents on 3rd street in Venice, but I used to play golf at Penmar for like the least 8 years, and there were never tents there, and in the past couple years it became about 1.5 miles of tents along holes 1 and 3. It has just grown leaps and bounds.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#238

Post by throwhome2 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

Nobody wants to admit this, but probably more so here on HN and specially those who will downvote this reply to oblivion and have 10k+ karma points. They will find any excuse to sidestep this as a legitimate issue, here are some to watch out for: a. other countries have a worse homeless problem b. it's because we closed mental health institutions in the 80s c. I was homeless you don't know what you're talking about d. war on drugs is the cause e. you shouldn't judge others maybe they chose this... the list goes on and on and I'm not going to respond to any of them here, just something to be on the look out for when this topic comes up. In the US people don't find the same solidarity with their fellow citizens unless you belong to the same club or same sociopolitical spectrum you basically think you're better than everyone else and there is a deep rooted superiority complex among people here. This is in stark contrast to countries even in Europe including Italy and others where there is a strong sense of community and for example Italianess that supersedes petty political and idealogical beliefs that many in the US cling to almost religiously.

I don't think Americans want to admit this specially the closer to the coastal cities you get the less sense of solidarity with fellow citizens and belongingness prevails rather than more community driven even religious South.

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#239

Post by bperson » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

foxpurple wrote: post #175

legitster wrote: post #109

This is becoming such a frustrating issue. As an advocate of public spaces and parks, it's kind of heartbreaking that maybe 1/3 of public spaces in our town are no longer usable for all - they have more or less become private spaces for the homeless. I don't have much respect for communities that solve the issue by just "kicking them out" and passing the problem onto others, but it is almost becoming unacceptably com…

IMO the city should provide enough homeless shelters for everyone and then just make homelessness illegal. So if you are found sleeping in a tent you get referred to the nearest shelter and if you refuse you get arrested. We can not allow homelessness to exist because it makes public spaces unsafe like you mention. Homeless shelters can also help by making it hard for them to continue their drug addictions.

> Homeless shelters can also help by making it hard for them to continue their drug addictions

Many homeless choose the street over the shelter for this reason

Re: Woman sues L.A. after being struck by car on a street where tents block sidewalk

#240

Post by padastra » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:05 PM UTC

dyingkneepad wrote: post #23

As a non-American person living in the US, I fail to understand one thing about its society. When I walk around town I see tons and tons of places advertising jobs, for simple stuff like kitchen, moving stuff around, etc. I even recently saw a store with a "talk to the manager and start working right now" sign. And then I walk around the streets and see all these homeless. It seems like a paradox to me, but I am obvi…

What you're seeing in this thread about how is a person by themselves supposed to be clean for an interview, have an address for a check, get housing on minimum wage in San Francisco, etc. is missing the point. 70%+ of people who are homeless climb out it, proving that it is possible (despite the aforementioned resource challenges -- that's almost tautological to what being poor is). Those who don't and remain chronically homeless have some combination of reduced functional ability, reduced physical or mental health (including stress from poverty contributing to drug use and vice versa), or other more fundamental issues. These people also exist in other countries.

What's more unique to the U.S. is that for large swathes of people, their family has totally washed their hands of their responsibility. Compared to poor authoritarian countries that's probably because in those countries, families know their loved ones will die if they are left out on their own with no help. Compared to Europe, it's because large segments of the population have broken family units (e.g. 72% of black babies are born to unmarried mothers, who by nature have much more difficulty providing resources / shelter to an adult child who moved away to another city and is homeless there. And this is definitely impacted by historic racism, and even modern-day racism, but is independently now a self-perpetuating cycle of poverty and broken families and crime).

I'm going to be downvoted but I've worked in homeless shelters, for public outreach, for jobs programs, and the problem is incredibly challenging. The idea that society can replace family is inane. What you see on HN is some white liberal dude who grew up in an upper-middle-class family, makes $300K a year waving their fingers over a keyboard but thinks they're financially oppressed so votes for Bernie Sanders, and just repeats some stuff they read on reddit or some shitty NPR story, but who has never bothered to truly spend time doing public health outreach, has never truly interacted with the homeless for an entry-level job, has never really assessed their ability to complete even basic tasks. They think it should be an easy problem to solve with just a few more resources, which they vote for (obviously without getting themselves dirty in the process), and then see it as evidence of an unjust society while wondering why SF is getting shittier every year.