NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#611

Post by acituan » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:26 PM UTC

Barrin92 wrote: post #553

timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

> The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants

> Tolerating disease spread and threats to vulnerable populations when vaccines are available that are practically risk-free (or the risk being magnitudes smaller than the payoff) is ridiculous

Those are very different justifications with very different policy implications, it is best not to conflate the two.

If breakthrough variants was the major concern (and it should have been) vaccine rollout should have been fast in addition to very high percentages, and vaccinated/unvaccinated population mix should have been minimized with policy. Anything less gives the perfect arena for evolutionary algorithm to learn its way around the vaccine immunity.

Second issue is the fading immunity of current vaccines in comparison to natural immunity. Vaccines got disproportionate attention and funding at the expense of covid treatment bets, which would have helped with developing higher natural immunity levels. To what degree conflicts of interests due to EUA play in this, we don’t know. But once booster shots enter the “mandatory” territory, that will cause an additional drop in compliance. How many boosters can we really mandate, for how many years?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#612

Post by datameta » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

bingohbangoh wrote: post #576

Barrin92 wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2. Terrible first order logic. The threat from the virus is not only immediate risk to the individual, it is also further transmissions increasing the risk of creating new breakthrough variants. Every infected person is a gamble that risks nullifying the effectiveness of vaccines, so the goal must be to bring down infections…

Won’t there always be a variant popping up somewhere in some part of the world though? The idea that “if we all got vaccinated, we could have zero variants” reeks of “zero COVID” thinking

More unvaccinated people -> more people getting covid -> more chances for mutation into variants

It's really that simple. We want as few active infections as possible globally so that existing vaccinations can work for the variants they were made in mind with. Otherwise we will be at the disadvantage in a perpetual arms race trying to quickly stamp out the global "fires" of new variants.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#613

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:29 PM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #380

clukic wrote: post #197

Vaccine requirements have been in place for decades. For pre-K in NYC kids need shots for PCV and Hib. For kindergarten they need more shots: Hep B, Polio, Chickenpox, and Measles, Mumps and Rubella. Going to middle school? Then you'll need more shots, the TDAP and meningococcal conjugate. These are all vaccine requirements. Is it an invasion or privacy to demand children's records? Is it the nanny state? We could go…

Honestly, I think a lot of people here without kids have absolutely no idea that you need to prove immunization in order to attend school. What’s funnier still to me is men (it always seems to be men) outraged that they might need to prove vaccination in order to send their kids back to school, publicly admitting that they’ve been fobbing that work off on their spouse.

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#614

Post by vkou » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

esyir wrote: post #604

stefan_ wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The result will be 3) everyone will be infected with a vastly more contagious, possibly more deadly variant that is resistant to vaccine. Your scenario isn't an option. It's not "over" because it has run its course in a single wave.

Looking at the history of disease, that's pretty unlikely. Traditionally, the optimal virus is going to get more contagious, but far less deadly; a disease that kills its host rapidly generally burns itself out. Now, the consequences of getting to that more optimal virus I'm a lot more hazy about.

> Traditionally, the optimal virus is going to get more contagious, but far less deadly; a disease that kills its host rapidly generally burns itself out

The Spanish flu mutated into a more deadly variant, half-way through that pandemic. It went on to kill more people than World War I.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#615

Post by swader999 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

pcurve wrote: post #48

tboyd47 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Requiring people to consume a medical product, especially one that has not been subject to the full FDA approval process, just to live their normal lives is morally wrong. They are making people into test subjects for a multinational corporation. It doesn't matter if we already do this to an extent with other vaccines; nothing in the past has ever come close to this. It doesn't matter if you think the vaccine is more…

We live in a society that operates under a set of laws, including entrusting public officials and experts to make decisions on our behalf. Not all the laws are going to be popular. I'm sure not everybody is thrilled about schools requiring all children be vaccinated. People can object to it and express concerns about, and you can even try to change it through legislation. But the majority will prevail. Regarding your…

Right, and the check against these laws becoming unjust is the constitution.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#616

Post by nindalf » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #129

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> We have never before justified such intrusive government policies based on the risks faced by these individuals.

This is factually untrue isn’t it? Children are forced to get vaccinated if they want to access the public school system in at least some parts of the US.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#617

Post by swader999 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

bart_spoon wrote: post #266

bsagdiyev wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you’re vaccinated then you’re not at risk? I say as a vaccinated person.

What about the immunocompromised? Those who can’t have the vaccine. To say nothing of breakthrough infections and the fact that the mutation rate is tied to the number of infections, and therefore a vaccinated person’s immunity could indeed be impacted by large contingents of unvaccinated persons being infected. And how about the financial cost of COVID? Perhaps we should make it so that if one gets severe COVID and…

There simply isn't enough of them to justify the counter-measures.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#618

Post by borski » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

kaybe wrote: post #477

timr wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for providing an excellent example of the fear-based reasoning surrounding "cases". I understand that you are scared, but is incorrect to imply that my opinion comes from a lack of understanding of what you're talking about. > Why is this so hard for people to understand? I understand your argument, but I disagree with you, based on a long education in this area, a deep understanding of the data, and person…

> Every time I get a head cold, I typically develop a cough that lasts > 3 weeks. Just a heads-up, that can turn into asthma if you are susceptible. Take care to properly heal every time. (That'd be 'long cold' I guess. We don't need more of that stuff.)

Came here to say this. Had this enough times that it turns out I do have asthma (now medicated).

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#619

Post by swader999 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #51

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I have a family member who, despite acknowledging that seat belts work and save lives, refuses to wear his seat belt purely out of petty spite "because I'm not gonna let the tyrannical government tell me what to do!" This endless conversation about vaccines is feeling more and more like that. Orthodox Individualism has become a religion.

Hypocrite if they still use brakes.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#620

Post by User23 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

Uberphallus wrote: post #411

_red wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. How is this not understood? Vaccines should only be used for targeted at-risk population. Everyone else should strive for natural immunity.

> High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. > How is this not understood? The same way vaccines create selection pressure, so does natural immunity. Letting people get infected instead of vaccinating them actually makes the dice roll much more, as in orders of magnitude more. Just look how most of the variants of concern, and mainly delta,…

> Only vaccinating those at-risk will keep this going and going for God knows how long, and regularly overcrowding hospitals with very corageous freedom fighters.

The vaccine doesn’t keep people from spreading delta because it’s not a sterilizing vaccine[1][2]. It’s strange there was that big concern over asymptotic spread and the response was to administer an intervention that greatly increases asymptotic cases.

> instead of playing armchair epidemiologist.

You might want to take your own advice here.

[1] https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-c...

[2] https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/02/02/1017161/covid-va...