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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#411

Post by Uberphallus »

_red wrote: post #365
JoshTko wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A high vaccination rate is most beneficial for poor and minority populations as they are by far the most exposed to the virus via work.

High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant. How is this not understood? Vaccines should only be used for targeted at-risk population. Everyone else should strive for natural immunity.

> High vaccination rates will only exert selection pressure on the virus causing new mutation strains to become dominant.

> How is this not understood?

The same way vaccines create selection pressure, so does natural immunity. Letting people get infected instead of vaccinating them actually makes the dice roll much more, as in orders of magnitude more.

Just look how most of the variants of concern, and mainly delta, appeared before any significant vaccine rollout, and further, delta shows high rates of reinfection vs. infection of vaccinated people.

Only vaccinating those at-risk will keep this going and going for God knows how long, and regularly overcrowding hospitals with very corageous freedom fighters.

Just get your shot instead of playing armchair epidemiologist.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#412

Post by ibejoeb »

What is the plan for undocumented workers? Especially in restaurants. Even if they managed to get vaccinated by providing valid "proof of age" documentation[1], they will not appear in the registries. And if anyone was skeptical and thought that the state might be lying about not tracking identity and immigration status, surely that identity information would likely be false. This is a significant, and likely a majority, of back-of-house restaurant workers, but it also cuts across industries.

When enforcement comes knocking, are we going to give them a pass? How does one reconcile requiring it for clients who spend and an hour or two, but not for workers spending 15 hours on premises?

1. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-vaccine-eligibi...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#413

Post by stefan_ »

stickfigure wrote: post #91
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Residents of the US have self-selected into two cohorts: 1) People that will get resistance via vaccines 2) People that will get resistance via infection Some 30-40% of the US population decided on #2. Roughly 0.7% of them will die because of that decision, but this is exactly what they are asking for ! If you are in cohort #1, you really don't have a lot to worry about from the virus. Why are you denying people the…

The result will be 3) everyone will be infected with a vastly more contagious, possibly more deadly variant that is resistant to vaccine. Your scenario isn't an option. It's not "over" because it has run its course in a single wave.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#414

Post by desine »

rubicon33 wrote: post #405
timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> We should be reacting rationally to rates of hospitalization and deaths -- and right now, those are barely changed in NYC, No. No. No. No. No. Why is this so hard for people to understand? A virus doesn't just enter your body, and quietly go away. In MANY cases, it can have a lasting effect on your underlying health and wellness. This isn't a point of question, it's a known FACT that is all too often left out of th…

If the ultimate goal is saving lives, how much of your daily life are you willing to sacrifice for public health? Willing to forego car ownership? End two day shipping speeds for non essential purchases?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#415

Post by ysavir »

mrfusion wrote: post #250
ysavir wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the vaccine is as effective as it seems, then this decision feels positively nanny state to me. It takes away an individual's agency to inform themselves of the risks on both sides and make an informed decision If this were mandating that every resident of NYC must be vaccinated, I would agree. But it's not doing that. It's only saying that anyone wanting to dine (or possibly shop, too) indoors, that is, in space…

It’s not a small stretch to imagine expanding it to all grocery stores. Then if you want to eat you have no choice but to get it. What about denying healthcare for unvaccinated? Another easy step.

> It’s not a small stretch to imagine expanding it to all grocery stores.

When Covid first broke everything shut down. That is, everything except grocery stores, which were open to all. So yes, I think it's a big stretch to imagine it expanding to grocery stores.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#416

Post by ok123456 »

tajustice wrote: post #385
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

ID laws are inherently racist, and have been leveraged by white supremacists for decades to keep POC from enjoying the rights and privileges they're guaranteed under the law. Businesses requiring vaccination IDs are de facto discriminating against POCs and other minorities because POCs and minorities are less likely to have ID, and less likely to be vaccinated.

The coronavirus doesn't discriminate.

Edit: Can't reply to the child since it's dead, but for the record, I got my covid vaccinations at an AME church (i.e., black) back in April.

Edit 2:

>Anecdotal evidence is always useful for bigotry. I went to an AME church (i.e., black) back in April and the church was denied vaccines.

No you didn't.

> The statistical facts are clear: POCs are much less likely to have access to vaccines, to be vaccinated, and to have IDs. Requiring ID is inherently racist.

What facts? You're just making up stuff.

This has nothing to do with voter ID or voter suppression. You're just trolling, poorly.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#417

Post by dataflow »

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

The part that irks me about a vaccine mandate is it being imposed before FDA approval. The FDA isn't confident enough to approve the vaccine yet, yet other parts of the government are (effectively) saying they know better than the FDA? Is it really surprising that people hesitate when they see this? Isn't it kind of alarming to hear a government say, hey, our own scientists haven't approved this, but we want to inject it into your body anyway?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#418

Post by TomVDB »

textgel wrote: post #241
__m wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to drive a car without the tyranny of speed limits, I’m not putting anyone in danger except those who choose to be endangered (driving a car, walking a street). I oppose discrimination. I know how to drive a car, where is my driver’s license?

I want to be able to date without the risk of HIV, seems we have to abolish gay bars and make homsexuality itself a crime.

In many states, it’s a crime to have unprotected sex while knowingly having HIV and not informing your partner. That covers things right there.

Do you have any other examples to demonstrate your ability to make absurd analogies?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#419

Post by 15155 »

lolc wrote: post #55
drngdds wrote: post #31

Vaccine mandates are good in concept* and will probably spur a lot of the "I'll get it if it's required" or "I'm going to wait and see" people to go ahead and get it. But they're kind of weak as implemented here. Considering that a photo of a vaccine card is considered valid proof (and the guy checking cards at the bar or whatever is only going to spend two seconds looking at it), some enterprising scumbag could prob…

Regarding security: You can get fined over using fake certificates. So most people won't use fakes as long as the incentives are right. There's no need for airtight security here.

Incentive to drink under 21 (procuring a fake ID) is somehow greater than the incentive to participate in everyday life?

These cards have zero security features.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#420

Post by ysavir »

orblivion wrote: post #276
ysavir wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If the vaccine is as effective as it seems, then this decision feels positively nanny state to me. It takes away an individual's agency to inform themselves of the risks on both sides and make an informed decision If this were mandating that every resident of NYC must be vaccinated, I would agree. But it's not doing that. It's only saying that anyone wanting to dine (or possibly shop, too) indoors, that is, in space…

If you look at De Blasio's announcement of this "Key To NYC" program, the stated purpose sounds pretty clearly like trying to pressure people to get vaccinated. He gave the example of how successful it was with mandating city workers get vaccinated. Making it clear that this is to show New Yorkers that the way to participate in normal life is to be vaccinated. Sort of a "enough is enough, it's time to get vaccinated"…

> Maybe you think his real purpose is what you described rather than his stated purpose, but if he were hiding the ball I'd expect it in the other direction. It's rather jarring, really. But I suppose authoritarianism and paternalism are becoming more normalized these days.

I don't think de Blasio has a real purpose. I think he's doing what his advisors and experts are recommending he do and he's trying to make it sound purposeful because the political like sounding purposeful.

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