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I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

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Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#51
post #26

Folks - if someone you know is not vaccinated at this point in time (in the US) - it's entirely on them if they get sick. And guess what - they already know this, made that decision, and nothing you rant and rave about is going to change it. Quit trying to drum up some mandatory vaccine rhetoric - or villianize these people. Just leave them alone and go about your life in whatever way you think is appropriate for you…

A couple of thoughts here. (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity because they either can't get the vaccine, or if they can get it they might not be fully protected by it. For that population, getting everyone vaccinated IS important and worth attempting. (2) More importantly, a spike in hospitalizations could threaten the healthcare system as a whole if we run out of ICU beds, exhaust doctors, expend billions in care, etc. The cost of the unvaccinated isn't borne just by them - its paid by all of us when they show up in the hospital needing expensive care, and/or we are forced to shutdown our economy out of concern over overfilled ICUs. That makes a discussion of mandatory vaccination completely reasonable, and not simply rhetorical.

We should have tied CARES Act payments to vaccination... I'm guessing a $500 check would have persuaded almost everybody to get the shot. In the end the ROI of herd immunity might have been worth it?

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#52
Most people aren't doctors, epidemiologists, or scientists of any sort. Nobody can be experts at everything, so we rely on expert authorities to break things down for us. Since we're not experts ourselves, we cannot independently verify what the experts are saying, which means our relationship with them is built on trust. But what happens when a nation becomes so fiercely divided along political lines that we collectively stop trusting expert authorities?

What's more, people don't like being told they're wrong. They especially don't like being talked down to. When experts (and more importantly, those arguing on social media on behalf of those experts) use demeaning language to address critics and people with concerns, the people don't respond well. Some of them will begrudgingly admit they were wrong, but humans are not purely logical creatures. Many will write off those who talk down to them as malicious or corrupt and use that as justification to disregard what they say.

We all need to start showing more respect to one another. Be patient and compassionate when dealing with people who are currently opposed to getting vaccinated - even if they don't show you the same courtesy. It wont earn you fake internet points and you're certainly not guaranteed to convince them of anything, but you'll never reach them doing anything else.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#53
post #2

I can. I got my shots as soon as I could, but I know lots of people that will never do it. Yesterday I was eating at a ramen shop - traffic was slow, so I got to listen to the bulletproof young man waiting tables talk to his friend at length about how he'd never get the shot, just like the flu, I'm not an anti-vaxxer - but, I don't wear tinfoil hats - but. The list of reasons not to do it was long and apparently conv…

I'm curious, if you are young, what are the reasons to get vaccinated?

to prevent the spread of disease

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#54
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A gentle reminder that no children under 12 have been vaccinated yet, and so the behavior of unvaccinated adults affects more people than you're talking about here.

Statistics seem to imply children under 12 are nearly 100% safe (so far). This is a major reason the vaccine hasn't been prioritized for children. If children were at serious risk here, a children vaccine would have been prioritized long ago - well before we prioritized getting vaccines to the 75 and older age group. The entire duration of the pandemic has seen such a miniscule amount of infected children - and even…

Children can still be infected and transmit the disease, no?

Vaccination does not prevent transmission, but it does reduce it.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#55
post #42

I respect the profession, but I cannot expect this doctor knows much or anything about the mechanisms by which these "vaccines" work. They aren't biochemists or medical researchers, they are years behind the data if not decades, often times. There are reasons to be aprehensive, especially given the nature of the adverse reactions, it is fair to speculate interactions with very important genes regulating transcription…

Are you a biochemist or medical researcher?

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#56
post #2

I can. I got my shots as soon as I could, but I know lots of people that will never do it. Yesterday I was eating at a ramen shop - traffic was slow, so I got to listen to the bulletproof young man waiting tables talk to his friend at length about how he'd never get the shot, just like the flu, I'm not an anti-vaxxer - but, I don't wear tinfoil hats - but. The list of reasons not to do it was long and apparently conv…

I'm curious, if you are young, what are the reasons to get vaccinated?

* Not infecting others who are more at risk or cannot get the vaccine (allergies, age, availability) or are higher risk than you (age, preconditions), including anti-vaxxers (I would be devastated if a beloved family members died even if they rejected the vaccine).

* Doing your part to wipe Covid out so we get back to normal (do you have a better plan?)

* Wiping Covid out so we don't get a worse strain like the delta strain that will affect younger people.

* The lag between a particularly bad strain circulating widely and you finding out about it.

* Long Covid including brain chronic fatigue / brain fog, potential non fatal but still permanent, debilitating lung damage, cardiovascular damage leading to increased risk of strokes later on. Which has been shown to be a risk for young people as well, more than death.

* Avoiding the massive inconvenience of a potential multi week "very bad flu".

* The medical experts (gov agencies, universities, industries) across the world all strongly recommending it. (Have you at least asked your primary care physician if you should get it? Why not?)

* Benefitting from the exemptions granted to vaccinated people such as indoor dining in NYC and entering the US from Europe and vice versa.

* Keeping your job when they mandate it unofficially or officially (I've seen both).

* The demonstrated risk of dying from covid, and even more so the risk of long covid, as a young person still being way higher than the theoretical / non demonstrated risk of the vaccine. Especially since we have already vaccinated >1.5 billion people - if anything should be seriously wrong with the vaccines, fixing that and helping affected people would likely immediately become an important topic of medical research as soon as we find out.

* Fringe benefits like the lotteries for vaccinated people.

* There being clear evidence of covid being downplayed for political reasons, especially in the US and in 2020. But everywhere else and in 2021 as well. Prominent politicians who have downplayed it still having gotten the vaccine (granted, they're all old people, and your question was about young people). The same politicians constantly retreating from one wrong position to another as they are proven wrong again and again. Whereas the "other side" has so far mostly been right on every major topic.

* Political players that normally don't agree on anything agreeing on this - Russia, China and the US all have a vaccine program and recommend vaccination for essentially everyone. Inside the US, the Democrats are obviously in favor of vaccination, but do not forget that two vaccines got emergency approval while the Republicans had control of all three branches.

* Young people being vaccinated and showing up in vaccination stats influencing older people to get vaccinated.

* Last and least all the anecdotes of people who on their deathbed said they should've gotten the damn vaccine.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#57
post #51
post #26

Folks - if someone you know is not vaccinated at this point in time (in the US) - it's entirely on them if they get sick. And guess what - they already know this, made that decision, and nothing you rant and rave about is going to change it. Quit trying to drum up some mandatory vaccine rhetoric - or villianize these people. Just leave them alone and go about your life in whatever way you think is appropriate for you…

A couple of thoughts here. (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity because they either can't get the vaccine, or if they can get it they might not be fully protected by it. For that population, getting everyone vaccinated IS important and worth attempting. (2) More importantly, a spike in hospitalizations could threaten the healthcare system as a whole if we run out of ICU be…

We're spent trillions already, and seem to be on course for a few more. At some point, the cost and devastation to the economy outweighs the costs of the pandemic. It's dark and brutal - but that's how high level policy has to be formed, ie. it's an unreasonable goal to prevent 100% of illnesses and death.

> (1) There are a significant number of people relying on us reaching herd immunity

Herd Immunity can be reached either by vaccinations, previous infections, or both. We're well on track to reach the "both" mark, or possibly are already past it.

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#58

I really don't understand the anti-vaxxers. I mean, OK, when the vaccine first came out, I could understand a small measure of hesitancy. Hell, I even said something to the effect of "I don't necessarily want to be first in line." But at this point, the vaccines have been given to, what, billions of people? And the number of people who have suffered severe ramifications that can be attributed to a vaccine rounds to z…

Anti-vaxxers' rallying cry is "WE DON'T KNOW THE LONG TERM EFFECTS YET!"

Which means, I guess they'll get the shot in 50 years?

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#59
post #54
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistics seem to imply children under 12 are nearly 100% safe (so far). This is a major reason the vaccine hasn't been prioritized for children. If children were at serious risk here, a children vaccine would have been prioritized long ago - well before we prioritized getting vaccines to the 75 and older age group. The entire duration of the pandemic has seen such a miniscule amount of infected children - and even…

Children can still be infected and transmit the disease, no? Vaccination does not prevent transmission, but it does reduce it.

It would seem it's exceptionally rare, and even more rare to develop complications or death.[1]

And the only people they can transit it to that would be "at-risk" are people who've had the vaccine available to them for free, for months and chosen explicitly to not get it. That's their choice, and we should not cripple the country over it.

[1] https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/COV...

Re: I’m an ICU Doctor and I Can't Believe What Unvaccinated Patients Are Saying

#60
post #48

Once upon a time there was town called Statisticsville with a population of 1000 people. Every year around 8 people die. Sometimes 7, sometimes 9. One year, a new infectious disease came along and killed 2 additional people (both elderly). The population nearly had a civil war over these additional 2 deaths because some people thought the additional 2 deaths could have been prevented with better enforced public healt…

Not sure why downvoted. Do people think this comment indicates you are an antivaxxer? Which part of the comment suggests that?
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