NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#151

Post by __m » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #140

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

4) You oppose tyranny. People should be free to make their own choices. By going out unvaccinated, I'm not putting anyone in danger, except those who choose to be endangered (not isolating / sheltering at home, unmasked, unvaccinated). 5) You oppose discrimination. I'm immune but not vaccinated. Where's my immunity certificate?

I want to drive a car without the tyranny of speed limits, I’m not putting anyone in danger except those who choose to be endangered (driving a car, walking a street). I oppose discrimination. I know how to drive a car, where is my driver’s license?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#152

Post by cm2187 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

That's not the only reasons people wouldn't want to take the vaccine. For instance lots of people already had covid (particularly in NYC), and developed a natural immunity, which from the low reinfection rate, seems to be rock solid. It doesn't make a lot of sense to require that population to take a vaccine.

As for the vaccine being more or less dangerous than the virus, I think for any population over 40 or in poor health, the trade off is clearly in favour of the vaccine. But if you are 20 and in good health, I am not sure it is that obvious.

I am not overly concerned about the vaccine myself, and I got vaccinated even though I had covid (mostly to be able to travel), but I have some sympathy for people who decline to be vaccinated, particularly when all the population at risk had a chance to get vaccinated. At this point this is them managing their own risk. Their life, their decision.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#153

Post by TomVDB » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #140

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

4) You oppose tyranny. People should be free to make their own choices. By going out unvaccinated, I'm not putting anyone in danger, except those who choose to be endangered (not isolating / sheltering at home, unmasked, unvaccinated). 5) You oppose discrimination. I'm immune but not vaccinated. Where's my immunity certificate?

> By going out unvaccinated, I'm not putting anyone in danger

Yes, you are.

* while a vaccinated person can spread the virus as well, current understanding is that it does so less than for an unvaccinated person.

* vaccinated people can get sick, even if there's a much lower chance

* vaccinated people can still have children who are not vaccinated

None of this is absolute. It's a matter of percentages, chances and what not.

Your claim is an absolute, and it's absolutely wrong.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#154

Post by timr » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #133

timr wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> And literally anyone who wants a vaccine can get one. Literally not true. Kids under 12 are not able to be vaccinated, which puts a limit on the activities they and their families can do. If they're able to know that everyone inside a restaurant is vaccinated they'll be more likely to visit. > It might well lead to anger and violence (as similar moves have across Europe). Not really. There were some minor protests…

> Literally not true. Kids under 12 are not able to be vaccinated, which puts a limit on the activities they and their families can do. If they're able to know that everyone inside a restaurant is vaccinated they'll be more likely to visit.

This policy is also hysterical, and not based in science. Kids should not be under any restrictions due to SARS-CoV2.

Please see my comment from yesterday as to why I believe this is true:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28041775

(Aside: I generally feel that the FDA is on the right side of history by being exceptionally careful with approval of the vaccine for children, but arguments like the parent's -- I hear this a lot in different contexts -- do sometimes make me wish that they'd just make an extremely limited approval so that the most fearful 5% of people can force it upon their children and stop holding the rest of the world hostage.)

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#155

Post by devit » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

mandmandam wrote: post #2

Privacy watchdogs, data protection groups, and human rights councils have largely condemned these "vaccine passports". To date, I haven't seen their concerns mentioned - mentioned - in any of these pronouncements. I get that there are enough people willing to go along with this that they'll likely stick around for a bit - but another thing I haven't seen is an end game. Corona is in the deer, it's in pets. Are they a…

I don't really see what the problem would be with vaccinating every six months in case it turns out to be necessary to keep up immunity; in fact even vaccinating every month would be fine to avoid the risk of severe COVID.

Indications though seems to be for only needing 2 or 3 doses or needing boosters multiple years apart.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#156

Post by clukic » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #129

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

The vulnerable populations aren't vaccinated. The vaccination rate in Brooklyn for people 65+ is just a bit over 50% (51% white/54% African American).

If cases keep rising I don't see any reason why hospitalizations and deaths won't follow. Unless the delta variant is less dangerous or treatments have improved tremendously.

So, the options are 1)Stop indoor dining 2)Accept the public health implications or 3) Require vaccinations for high risk activities. I feel like option 3 imposes the least harm.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#157

Post by Daishiman » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:57 PM UTC

corey_moncure wrote: post #125

mthoms wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rights end when exercising them endangers my life and the lives of my family. That’s also a basic tenet of civil society (see traffic laws for example).

My body, my choice only applies when we're talking about terminating the lives of unborn children, right?

As far as many of us are concerned, fetuses do not have human status, so the argument is absolutely irrelevant for most as a comparison.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#158

Post by SirensOfTitan » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #120

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #39

To preface: I got the vaccine months ago (as soon as I had access), I'm a big believer in vaccines. With that being said, this policy doesn't sit well with me. None of the currently available vaccines in the US are FDA approved. Of course, a lot of people have received those vaccines, but I also don't necessarily fault individuals for feeling hesitant (the nuance here is that I think people ought to get the vaccine).…

> If the vaccine is as effective as it seems, then this decision feels positively nanny state to me. It takes away an individual's agency to inform themselves of the risks on both sides and make an informed decision. Do people feel the same way about schools requiring vaccines, or children getting the MMR, Hep B, or Polio vaccines?

As I clearly mentioned, this vaccine is not FDA approved. We have no idea of the long term effects. I find it fairly reasonable to not want to be a test subject.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#159

Post by chimeracoder » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #152

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

That's not the only reasons people wouldn't want to take the vaccine. For instance lots of people already had covid (particularly in NYC), and developed a natural immunity, which from the low reinfection rate, seems to be rock solid. It doesn't make a lot of sense to require that population to take a vaccine. As for the vaccine being more or less dangerous than the virus, I think for any population over 40 or in poor…

> As for the vaccine being more or less dangerous than the virus, I think for any population over 40 or in poor health, the trade off is clearly in favour of the vaccine. But if you are 20 and in good health, I am not sure it is that obvious.

The risks of complications from the virus are many orders of magnitude higher than risks of complications from the vaccine, even for people in their 20s.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#160

Post by cm2187 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:58 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #103

polote wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

> the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate The goal is to avoid overloading the hospital system. Vaccinated people spreading the Delta variant amongst each other is not going to do that. Unvaccinated people getting sick will.

Not if they are 20 or already had covid.