NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#141

Post by cratermoon » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #124

polote wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

> It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to be the one who are punished because the vaccination rate is not high enough. If their businesses are spreading the disease then it seems entirely reasonable.

Pretty much this. Businesses that are known to be problematic, like restaurants and bars, should expect that their choice to stay open and continue serving people comes with responsibilities. They don't operate free of consequences, and they shouldn't expect to externalize those consequences.

However, it really sucks that the people who mostly end up trying to enforce the mandate are the staff who already have, in most countries, jobs that most of us would not consider fun. The people most likely to insist on going out to eat and entertain are, generally, the sorts of unpleasant folk that already treat waitstaff poorly.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#142

Post by Daishiman » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

analyte123 wrote: post #81

bern4444 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination in NY/NYC is easily proven. Picture of your vaccine card is sufficent and there's also the excelsior pass which is a QR code. Super easy to get from a city/state website after entering a few details (think name, when your last vaccine was, which vaccine etc). This can be downloaded as an image, into apple wallet etc. For those who chose not to, they can stick to carrying around their vaccine card (just as…

Getting a vaccine to cross an international border is not the same as getting a vaccine to walk to a bar on your own street in your own country. Besides, people who have not had the Covid vaccine are not directly preventing anyone from enjoying life. The people are either choosing to not enjoy life themselves, or their government is putting restrictions on them (and then they are obeying them) while blaming the restr…

Anywhere where an ICU bed is taken by an unvaxxed COVID patient is a bed that was available for anyone else for any other reason.

Anwhere where unvaxxed people have to take time out because they're sick is time they could have spent working, contributing towards their families or communities, and someone is going to have to take up the work.

So not, at a collective level, unvaccinated people are _very much_ preventing others from enjoying themselves.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#143

Post by kook_throwaway » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

ragingrobot wrote: post #6

Without getting into the whole vaccine thing... People need to start protesting with their wallets. People need to talk less and act more. I work in NYC, in an "essential" service. In the beginning myself and other workers were threatened with discipline if we did not show up for work. We were told to go straight home, and stay inside, and do as little as necessary otherwise. Now, this is easy for me, as I am single…

It's not just you. I stopped using amazon and other big corps completely when they locked us down.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#144

Post by platz » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #129

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I am pro-vaccine (and fully vaccinated), but I don't support this policy at all. I don't believe this will have much of a net effect on vaccination rate, I believe it will disproportionately negatively impact poor and minority populations in NYC who already have a bad/mistrustful relationship with health care and government, and it is obviously a huge new governmental intrusion into our daily lives. It might well lea…

> if you are fully vaccinated, you are at essentially no risk of serious illness from SARS-CoV2.

For now...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#145

Post by lurquer » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

tracedddd wrote: post #57

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside a border crossing. The world has a nasty trend of using crises to erode privacy and we collectively never recover - what was sold as temporary becomes permanent, endlessly extended and expanded. I’m not an antivaxer. The vaccine works and I believe it’s really safe. I’m vaccinated. Nearly anyone who is capable to go to a bar can easily go get vacc…

> Nearly anyone who is capable to go to a bar can easily go get vaccinated.

It’s too risky to themselves and others for unvaccinated people to drive to a bar to drink alcohol. Ha. Similar to swabbing the injection site for lethal injections to avoid infections.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#146

Post by timr » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:54 PM UTC

tantalor wrote: post #84

tracedddd wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out a slippery slope doesn’t mean it isn’t worth considering the consequences. My position is indeed speculative, however it’s not without evidence. We very rarely regain rights or freedoms when they are taken so I think it’s valid to be concerned about the same thing happening here.

> not without evidence Please give examples

Six months ago, I was routinely told that my fears of vaccine passports were "conspiracy theory", and the same arguments about the slippery slope were invoked.

At some point, you just have to look down and notice that the slope of the ground is negative, and everything is greasy.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#147

Post by rajin444 » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #103

polote wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

> the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate The goal is to avoid overloading the hospital system. Vaccinated people spreading the Delta variant amongst each other is not going to do that. Unvaccinated people getting sick will.

> The goal is to avoid overloading the hospital system

If that's the goal we need to decide what things are ok to go to the hospital for and what aren't. A lot of hospital visits could be prevented if we took the obesity epidemic seriously - I imagine the CFR of covid would be way down if America was not so obese.

And if we're ok with mandating vaccines, we should definitely be ok with mandating a healthy bodyfat %. The health gains from the latter would dwarf that of the former.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#148

Post by chitowneats » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #131

polote wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

> people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus Just FYI, a vaccinated person, like anyone else, can only transmit the virus if they have a symptomatic breakthrough case.

So you're saying there's no such thing as asymptomatic spread of COVID-19? Isn't asymptomatic spread a primary reason for the unprecedented restrictions and mass testing?

Edit: Down voters, I would appreciate an explanation for the down votes. Am I missing something simple or is OP mistaken?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#149

Post by muaytimbo » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

mariodiana wrote: post #119

Anyone who thinks that government and Big Tech are going to setup a platform just for this one disease and just for the duration of the pandemic are simply not fit to vote in a free country. This is the beginnings of a social credit system, à la China/Gattaca.

I saw the same connection, moral judgment passed on a citizen's personal, perfectly legal choices, by the government that leads to the restriction of that person's right to engage in society. This is to say nothing of the Orwellian tracking by the (soon to be I'm sure) required NYC or State pass on your phone.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#150

Post by jrockway » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 6:55 PM UTC

tracedddd wrote: post #57

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside a border crossing. The world has a nasty trend of using crises to erode privacy and we collectively never recover - what was sold as temporary becomes permanent, endlessly extended and expanded. I’m not an antivaxer. The vaccine works and I believe it’s really safe. I’m vaccinated. Nearly anyone who is capable to go to a bar can easily go get vacc…

What sort of things will health checks be used for in the future? Once Covid is gone, I don't think people will really care about your health information beyond entities that already care (health insurance providers denying coverage because of preexisting conditions, etc.) Certainly, The Mets won't care if you got your flu shot this year, and your local bar probably won't care that you didn't get your annual physical. If unrelated companies start caring about your health information after the pandemic, we should tell them to fuck off.

Covid is a public health crisis -- the single most dangerous existential threat we as a society are currently facing -- and we have great tools to kill it dead. Letting it spread right now is just stupid, because we can end this plague once and for all. While we're working on it, I think it's totally fair to let someone check your vaccination status before you pack yourself into close quarters with them. It's not a matter of the government or the corporate overlords wanting your health information. As the person standing next to you in a crowded bar, I don't want you there if you're not vaccinated. If indoor businesses won't check customers, then I won't go to those indoor businesses, and if enough people think like me, those businesses are gone forever.

Get vaccinated or stay home. You have a choice!

(The real threat during crises like these is things like "we shouldn't have a free press, because nutjobs are spreading misinformation". That is an exceedingly dangerous line of thinking and we should push back against that hard, because the cure is worse than the disease. That's not the case with Covid -- the cure is much better than the disease.)