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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#101

Post by adventured »

tantalor wrote: post #84
tracedddd wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing out a slippery slope doesn’t mean it isn’t worth considering the consequences. My position is indeed speculative, however it’s not without evidence. We very rarely regain rights or freedoms when they are taken so I think it’s valid to be concerned about the same thing happening here.

> not without evidence Please give examples

Letting the US Government, at the behest of the President, wage war nearly anytime it feels like it, without prior authorization of Congress. Slippery slope meet the forever war machine.

Trade & tariff conflicts of the 1930s, which spiraled from a smaller economic conflict into a larger economic conflict and into the great depression. All because the government was given too much leash to run with.

Letting the government (and Fed) bail out Wall Street repeatedly and institutionalize too big to fail as an economic policy.

The US Government specializes in lubricating slopes and speeding down them.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#102

Post by compsciphd »

giantg2 wrote: post #74
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

For #2, if you have a medical condition that prevents you from receiving the vaccine it would require either falsified vaccine cards to show you as complying with the mandate, or disclosure of a/the medical condition that prevents you from getting it. Effectively, this small minority is finding themselves in a position that pits their medical privacy of their underlying medical conditions against the requirement to p…

In Israel antibody levels are a way to get the "green passport". My parents get vaccinated in the US, and since israel doesn't recognize foreign vaccinations, when they visited Israel they had to get an antibody test to be let out quarantine early. As it should them having antibodies, they were let out. As Israel doesn't have data that says they were vaccinated, they were let out as "recovered" (even though as far as we know, neither ever caught covid, and my father was in in and of the hospital over the past year so was regularly tested).

As my mother is an Israeli citizen, she was given the "green passport", as my father was only in Israel on a "tourist visa", he was not. this is just an artifact of the current Israeli system where they aren't giving "green passports" to tourists, but demonstrating that one can give them to people that show sufficient antibodies.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#103

Post by JumpCrisscross »

polote wrote: post #25
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

> the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate

The goal is to avoid overloading the hospital system. Vaccinated people spreading the Delta variant amongst each other is not going to do that. Unvaccinated people getting sick will.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#104

Post by vkou »

polote wrote: post #25
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

Vaccinated people produce a much lower viral load. The lower the viral load that your body takes in, when you get infected, the less serious your symptoms/the lower your risk of hospitalization and death.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#105

Post by minikites »

ryandrake wrote: post #51
alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

I have a family member who, despite acknowledging that seat belts work and save lives, refuses to wear his seat belt purely out of petty spite "because I'm not gonna let the tyrannical government tell me what to do!" This endless conversation about vaccines is feeling more and more like that. Orthodox Individualism has become a religion.

>Orthodox Individualism has become a religion.

Over the last 40-some years, Conservatives and Republicans have been incredibly successful at destroying the idea of government which is effective and serves the public. The result is that oppositional defiance and grievance politics are all we have left.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#106

Post by grammarprofess »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #45

Fond memories of the days this was the sole domain of paranoid conspiracy theorists. Now, at the exact same moment that we are getting evidence of the mRNA vaccines' rapidly waning efficacy[1] and ineffectiveness at reducing transmission of the Delta variant, the screws are being tightened and the unvaccinated are being scapegoated. Never mind that this variant arose in India where there was never any possibility of…

Those are very good points. Totally agree, the vast majority of people are gonna be careful and display caution staying at home etc.. I think covid vaccines should be compelling by their efficacity and safety. This is all so stringent for something so rightly divisive

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#107

Post by the_reformation »

tantalor wrote: post #61
tracedddd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside a border crossing. The world has a nasty trend of using crises to erode privacy and we collectively never recover - what was sold as temporary becomes permanent, endlessly extended and expanded. I’m not an antivaxer. The vaccine works and I believe it’s really safe. I’m vaccinated. Nearly anyone who is capable to go to a bar can easily go get vacc…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#108

Post by whateveracct »

keneda7 wrote: post #15
alecst wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great reply, thank you. I don't want to get into a long argument, but a lot of what you say hinges on that 40% number. I'd like to know what that refers to. My reply to that 40% number: I thought that vaccines made you something like 20x less likely to end up in the hospital from coronavirus (widely cited as 95% protective.) And that unvaccinated people spread at 5x the rate of the vaccinated ones. https://www.nature…

Not the original poster but The article you link says the delta is unknown. Delta is rapidly becoming the most common variant in the US. ( https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210720/delta-variant-now-a... ) I believe the 40% is coming from the data out of Israel. ( https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-v... ) Also data from the CDC on the latest outbreak they studies shows that 74% of the positives…

> Overall its just a slippery slop when you give the government this right. What happens if conservatives get in power and decided abortion should be banned outright as they consider a fetus a person? By the same logic you are using, they would be perfectly reasonable to do that.

This is a ridiculous argument and I'd say mostly FUD. Abortion is pretty well litigated. Conservatives have been in power in state and national govts for years and they've barely managed to get anywhere close to this.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#110

Post by grammarprofess »

cududa wrote: post #98
benmmurphy wrote: post #43

Surely this is a violation of civil rights law. The law is going to have a disparate impact on minority groups since there is a difference in vaccination rates between different racial groups. The law doesn't seem narrowly scoped to achieve a specific compelling government interest. People from the government seem to be claiming this is being used to incentivise vaccine uptake. If the government made the claim that t…

Wrong. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

Wow that's interesting, sadly immigrants have to cheat the system, cant play by the rules like this, I'm sure he learned his lesson, bullshit till you make it
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