NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#41

Post by q3k » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

zepto wrote: post #34

q3k wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You wouldn't want strangers mandating injections into your body that you don't want. I mean, compulsory vaccination is a thing in many countries, and I think it's a net good for the world?

Compulsory injection with compounds that are not medically approved because they haven’t been tested to accepted standards is a good thing? For what it’s worth, I’m vaccinated and wear a mask in every public encounter until I’ve discussed the risks with whoever I am dealing with whether required to or not. However I strongly disagree with mandatory medical treatment of any kind. I could imagine a law for emergency va…

> Compulsory injection with compounds that are not medically approved because they haven’t been tested to accepted standards is a good thing?

First, that's not what the GP said. It's also not what I'm saying.

Second, where I live the vaccine I got [1] went through a well-defined process designed explicitly to safely but swiftly approve medicine for emergency use, eg. during pandemics [2].

[1] - https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/comirnaty

[2] - https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/marketing-auth...

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#42

Post by MrBuddyCasino » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

“Everyone is going to get Corona. Whether you’re vaccinated or not, whether you’re old or young, whether you’re tested or not, whether we lock down or not. This is a fact of life now.

The vaccines will protect against severe symptoms only for a time, and Corona is always changing. Slowing the spread will prove counter-productive particularly to those who have sought the protection of vaccines.

Your best hope of continued immunity is infection while your vaccine still protects against severe symptoms. The best hope that children have of mild infection in adulthood, is low-risk infection now, while they are at no risk. There is no more point in slowing the spread.

That will only make us immunologically naive to this virus for a longer period of time. Many, many viruses infect and reinfect billions of humans throughout their lives, with barely any notice. It is time we made Corona one of these viruses.” End.

[0] https://twitter.com/eugyppius1/status/1422789917873262595

If you doubt this: consider that Israel is nearly fully vaccinated, yet they are, right now, making plans for lockdown in September.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#43

Post by benmmurphy » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

Surely this is a violation of civil rights law. The law is going to have a disparate impact on minority groups since there is a difference in vaccination rates between different racial groups. The law doesn't seem narrowly scoped to achieve a specific compelling government interest. People from the government seem to be claiming this is being used to incentivise vaccine uptake. If the government made the claim that the vaccine was necessary in an indoor setting in order to reduce the spread then the law might be ok but because they have been caught making these other claims then it could burn them in court.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#44

Post by eropple » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #11

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Requiring people to consume a medical product, especially one that has not been subject to the full FDA approval process, just to live their normal lives is morally wrong. They are making people into test subjects for a multinational corporation. It doesn't matter if we already do this to an extent with other vaccines; nothing in the past has ever come close to this. It doesn't matter if you think the vaccine is more…

How many compulsory vaccines were necessary for you to attend school?

For me, it was three or four at least, and until some genuinely inimical people decided vaccines were a good way to get famous at the expense of the body politic, nobody cared.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#45

Post by AndrewBissell » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

Fond memories of the days this was the sole domain of paranoid conspiracy theorists. Now, at the exact same moment that we are getting evidence of the mRNA vaccines' rapidly waning efficacy[1] and ineffectiveness at reducing transmission of the Delta variant, the screws are being tightened and the unvaccinated are being scapegoated. Never mind that this variant arose in India where there was never any possibility of the entire population being vaccinated all at once.

If the vaccines work, why are we talking about vaccine passports and domestic travel bans? If the vaccines don't work, why are we talking about vaccine passports and domestic travel bans?

Also worth noting, this is de facto racial segregation, because blacks and Hispanics are by far the highest population of unvaccinated in NYC. Funny how a lifetime of having your health and well-being actively ignored and sabotaged by public officials raises doubts when they suddenly show up with shiny new injections and start pushing them with lotteries, free ice cream and donuts, and all the rest.

[1] https://swprs.org/covid-vaccines-the-good-the-bad-the-ugly/

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#46

Post by chadash » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

polote wrote: post #25

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate. It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to…

Alternatively, I'd be much more comfortable going out if I knew everyone around me would be vaccinated.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#47

Post by ysavir » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

SirensOfTitan wrote: post #39

To preface: I got the vaccine months ago (as soon as I had access), I'm a big believer in vaccines. With that being said, this policy doesn't sit well with me. None of the currently available vaccines in the US are FDA approved. Of course, a lot of people have received those vaccines, but I also don't necessarily fault individuals for feeling hesitant (the nuance here is that I think people ought to get the vaccine).…

>If the vaccine is as effective as it seems, then this decision feels positively nanny state to me. It takes away an individual's agency to inform themselves of the risks on both sides and make an informed decision

If this were mandating that every resident of NYC must be vaccinated, I would agree. But it's not doing that. It's only saying that anyone wanting to dine (or possibly shop, too) indoors, that is, in spaces we know to have higher contamination and spread rate, they need to be vaccinated. People that are hesitant can still go unvaccinated and that's fine, but they have to keep to areas where contamination and spread are less prevalent.

And I think that's fair.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#48

Post by pcurve » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:04 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #11

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Requiring people to consume a medical product, especially one that has not been subject to the full FDA approval process, just to live their normal lives is morally wrong. They are making people into test subjects for a multinational corporation. It doesn't matter if we already do this to an extent with other vaccines; nothing in the past has ever come close to this. It doesn't matter if you think the vaccine is more…

We live in a society that operates under a set of laws, including entrusting public officials and experts to make decisions on our behalf.

Not all the laws are going to be popular. I'm sure not everybody is thrilled about schools requiring all children be vaccinated. People can object to it and express concerns about, and you can even try to change it through legislation. But the majority will prevail.

Regarding your statement: "You might make the argument that anti-vaxxers are endangering others' health by being out in public without a vaccine, but that's only a claim." It's a claim backed by stats. On an individual level, it may be discriminatory to accuse an anti-vaxxer of endangering others without specific proof. But in aggregate, unvaccinated people are more likely to be infected and also spreading disease unknowingly. At least until the Delta variant came along, and now the officials have revised guidelines to ensure everyone wears mask.

Do I think it was premature to let vaccinated people go without mask? Sure. It wasn't my call. But nobody has a crystal balls into the future. So we adapt.

In the long run, operating this fashion has served us well.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#49

Post by nostromo » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

ragingrobot wrote: post #6

Without getting into the whole vaccine thing... People need to start protesting with their wallets. People need to talk less and act more. I work in NYC, in an "essential" service. In the beginning myself and other workers were threatened with discipline if we did not show up for work. We were told to go straight home, and stay inside, and do as little as necessary otherwise. Now, this is easy for me, as I am single…

As a former New Yorker... people should vote with their wallets and their feet.

New York has become a pretty miserable place to live. And for the privilege of living in a miserable place you pay an exorbitant amount.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#50

Post by gadders » Wed, Aug 04, 2021, 5:05 PM UTC

alecst wrote: post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This discriminates against the same parts of the population that are unable to get an ID to be able to vote. I would think a vaccine passport would need some other form of ID first so it can be tied to a particular person.