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NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

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Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#21
post #11
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Requiring people to consume a medical product, especially one that has not been subject to the full FDA approval process, just to live their normal lives is morally wrong. They are making people into test subjects for a multinational corporation. It doesn't matter if we already do this to an extent with other vaccines; nothing in the past has ever come close to this. It doesn't matter if you think the vaccine is more…

Stop getting your opinions from Facebook misinformation as if it’s a Macdonalds burguer bro.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#22
post #15
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great reply, thank you. I don't want to get into a long argument, but a lot of what you say hinges on that 40% number. I'd like to know what that refers to. My reply to that 40% number: I thought that vaccines made you something like 20x less likely to end up in the hospital from coronavirus (widely cited as 95% protective.) And that unvaccinated people spread at 5x the rate of the vaccinated ones. https://www.nature…

Not the original poster but The article you link says the delta is unknown. Delta is rapidly becoming the most common variant in the US. ( https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210720/delta-variant-now-a... ) I believe the 40% is coming from the data out of Israel. ( https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-v... ) Also data from the CDC on the latest outbreak they studies shows that 74% of the positives…

While it’s possible to be infected and vaccinated the possibility is lower right, even “only” 40% is a huge number! If only vaccinated people are in a space it dramatically decreases the likelihood I’ll become infected by more than 40% because every one of those people is also personally 40% less likely to be infected, so this is compounding. Please correct me if I’m wrong on that assessment.

As to the hear disease comment those comparisons are disingenuous because you can choose to exercise or not and your choice doesn’t impact others. My 7yo son cannot be vaccinated, he has no choose but to rely on others doing their part

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#23
post #11
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

Requiring people to consume a medical product, especially one that has not been subject to the full FDA approval process, just to live their normal lives is morally wrong. They are making people into test subjects for a multinational corporation. It doesn't matter if we already do this to an extent with other vaccines; nothing in the past has ever come close to this. It doesn't matter if you think the vaccine is more…

> You wouldn't want strangers mandating injections into your body that you don't want.

I mean, compulsory vaccination is a thing in many countries, and I think it's a net good for the world?

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#24
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that the whole thing is based on old data and a false premise that life is safe when vaccinated people are only around vaccinated people. We know this is slightly more true than among the unvaccinated, but only by about 40%. This is real data. Fears of privacy implications: Tracking data/metadata, How data is recorded, How long are records kept. What other data is linked to vaccination checks? Fears of…

Great reply, thank you. I don't want to get into a long argument, but a lot of what you say hinges on that 40% number. I'd like to know what that refers to. My reply to that 40% number: I thought that vaccines made you something like 20x less likely to end up in the hospital from coronavirus (widely cited as 95% protective.) And that unvaccinated people spread at 5x the rate of the vaccinated ones. https://www.nature…

It's hardly capturing anything.

People in HN complained a few months back that after they got the vaccine they felt like they suddenly had long covid.

The CDC stopped measuring outcomes for vaccinated people in May. Isreal's data is showing things that are not published in the United States. Policy in the United States is not based on Isreal's data.

https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/quick-update-on-the-isra...

Basically here's the gist that I'm guessing is happening: (This next part is just me and I haven't seen this ANYWHERE in the world - just fyi this could be considered mis-information but I'm sharing it anyway because I think I'm right and why wouldn't I ? lol)

The Covid vaccines are NOT generating memory T-Cells that react to the spike protein. Instead the vaccine is simply causing a slow IgA reaction, much like you would get when you catch a cold. That IgA is protective against Covid - that's something we already know. We already know that if you recently had a cold or anything really that boosts your iga, you're going to have temporary protection against covid.

That's what I think the vaccines are doing. We know that mrna does cause an iga boost, so one hypothesis I have is to just find things that can help boost IGA, and something less dangerous than mrna of the spike protein would be a much better idea for a iga booster than something that is failing as a memory t-cell responder.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#25
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

This measure can't be a way to create "zero covid spaces" because people who are vaccinated can still transmit the virus (even though less than unvaccinated people, but it doesnt seem to be a 90% reduction either). So the goal here is to increase the vaccination rate.

It seems pretty weird to ask the indoor business owners to be the ones who are in charge of controlling that the vaccination rate is increasing and to be the one who are punished because the vaccination rate is not high enough.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#26
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

> Unless, of course, you think that the vaccine is more dangerous than coronavirus. And then I don't really know what to say. There are vast demographics for which this is actually the case. Children under 18, for example. If you think these passports will only ever be used to check for Covid vaccination status, or that they'll be rolled back once Covid is no longer killing appreciable numbers of people, you're as gu…

[deleted]

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#27

Privacy watchdogs, data protection groups, and human rights councils have largely condemned these "vaccine passports". To date, I haven't seen their concerns mentioned - mentioned - in any of these pronouncements. I get that there are enough people willing to go along with this that they'll likely stick around for a bit - but another thing I haven't seen is an end game. Corona is in the deer, it's in pets. Are they a…

Obviously the end game isn't seen. We're nowhere close to the end game. We don't know about lasting immunity or about variants that don't even exist yet.

Maybe we can eradicate it, maybe not. Literally no one knows what the future holds here.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#29
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

> Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy.

Ill bite and present a good faith argument.

Let's start with the fact COVID-19 is not a very scary disease. The media makes it seem FAR worse than the reality.

Yes, there are risks. It appears to be 2-4x more deadly than influenza, but primarily impacts people with pre-existing conditions. As such, those individuals should protect themselves. If society needs to make some minor accommodations that may make sense. Example, perhaps we allow elderly to shop 6-9am at stores. They're given n95's, etc.

To put it in perspective, in 2020 people in their 80's have a 20% higher chance of death than 2019, so if you have a 5% chance of dying per year, we're talking 6%. That's not dramatic.

> 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone eating takes off their mask right away?

The evidence cloth masks are effective doesn't exist. As such, the policy doesn't make sense. Surgical and N95 masks do have evidence they help, but aren't primarily what people are using.

If you're talking about "fears about getting the vaccine", the vaccine isn't approved and there are treatments for covid-19. Meaning we shouldn't have emergency use authorization at this point AND it's not an FDA approved drug. Even if it becomes approved, I would not expect anyone to take it without discussing with their doctors.

Trials today are not completed. All we have are preliminary reports (phase 1, 2, 3):

https://www.modernatx.com/covid19vaccine-eua/providers/clini...

Long term impacts wont be known for 5-10 years. Further, many people can't have the vaccines.

I dont' see an issue with the vaccines, but people should be informed and not coerced.

> 2. You have fears about the privacy implications. If so, what are those fears? Perhaps your vaccination status can lead people to make inferences about your health?

In terms of privacy, the 4th amendment protects against government search and seizures. When government mandates papers being reviewed, they are effectively acting as agents of the state and doing searches.

Further, doctors should be the ones managing care, not bureaucrats. Historically, CDC and FDA issue suggestions and provide evidence. It's dangerous to try and enforce vaccines when we aren't taking into account pre-existing conditions. For instance, there are drugs, ages, pre-existing conditions, all of which impact vaccine effectiveness and risk profile(s).

Coercing people to take a take part in a human experimentation is something we consider a crime against humanity.

> 3. You are not particularly concerned about the community spread of coronavirus (and the implications of that)

The disease is already wide spread and approximately everyone has been exposed. Arguably the vast majority have a partial immunity (had the disease or vaccine). If it's still spreading, there's nothing we can do. Further, the delta variant spreads more easily, but is less deadly. So we shouldn't really worry here.

Re: NYC to mandate proof of vaccination for many indoor settings

#30
post #9

Pretty dismal discussion in here at the time of writing. Largely complaints about tyranny. Makes me sad that we can't have a calm discussion about the merits of the policy. From what I can tell, you might be opposed to this policy if: 1. You have fears about getting a vaccine, moreso than for coronavirus. If this is you, do you prefer a mask mandate? And if so, how do you enforce this in a restaurant, where anyone ea…

It's simple.

If you're vaccinated you shouldn't care whether other people in the restaurant are. That's the point of vaccination after all.

And if you're not vaccinated obviously you're not going to be in favor of this new mandate.

The people who support policies like these are vaccin efficacy denialists, petty tyrants, and doomers of various sorts.

And there are good reasons to not want to live in a "papers please" society.

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